Ep. 14: Andreas Jahn of RAP – How Regulation Shapes the Future of Smart Charging & Flexibility

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things, energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

Welcome to a new episode of Smart Charge. Today we're joined by Andreas Jahn, senior associate at the Regulatory Assistance Project, RAP, one of Europe's leading experts when it comes to smart energy regulation and power market reform and grids. He has over 20 years of experience joining Lichtblick, one of the first utilities in Germany, then the government, the ministries and associations, and then with the RAP being responsible for. Several topics internationally. He takes us behind the curtain of energy policy. Why does flexibility often remain untapped

How do outdated network tariffs and regulatory frameworks stand in the way of innovation? And what needs to change so that demand side flexibility, storage and smart EV and fleet charging can truly scale? We also take a look at international best practices, Germany's regulatory bottlenecks, and what a truly futureproof electricity system could look like. Let's dive in.

All right uh Andreas, nice to have you today. How are you doing? Hi, um, great to be here. So yeah, I'm doing well and uh looking forward to, to that interview or to that podcast. Awesome. Yeah, before we start talking about geeky energy systems topics and regulations, etc. uh, for the listeners, can you introduce yourself so that they know who Andreas Yan is? Yeah, sure. So actually I'm in the energy business since uh what is that more than 20 years now. I started with an energy

retailer in the first and ended up with um regulatory authorities. So with the ministry in Germany I've been for a while with. Associations and now with the regulatory assistance project and actually that all of that happened because the framework wasn't set proper by then and developed over time and obviously resources or human resources has been required to add to that. And that's why I'm now with um the regulatory system project or called RAP um to to improve that because there are benefits um across the world

to improve the framework and um at the end um the benefits consumers and um uh yeah supply can um. Uh, contribute to the system and to the future actually to a clean future in this regard. Makes sense. In one step back, how did you get into the energy system? What drew you to that? Well, um, actually the, the first was, um, it was liberalize the market and um there has been plenty of jobs offered and um I did not know by detail what to do with

my um. With my, uh, yeah, finalization of my, my studies and um I said let's let's try the energy business and that's where I'm still so obviously um uh it was a good um uh market opening um by then. So we're talking before 1997, right? No, no, not that long. That was about 2000, so that it was because in 1997, that's when I think in the EU, the decision for the liberalization was done, but then maybe. You, you can elaborate a bit on how, how long

it took then for the, for the, for, for it to arrive in Germany or or at which point you exactly entered and what the situation was here. Right, so that was actually indeed a process and um why we have energy markets today that was actually driven um uh in Europe mostly by the UK because um they liberalized in the first and the industry um got cheaper electricity prices. And um the the German um industry was keen about that and said, well, we wanna have um a

competitive markets as well if we can get the prices down. So, and that was why there was pressure from the industry and with that, but then when the UK was still part of the EU then um they developed in in Brussels mostly. Then um the energy um market, the internal energy market for Europe with all these um guidelines and regulations we have in place now. That was uh indeed in the last millennium, but um in the first it was in Germany, let's say a bit different

There wasn't an uh authority pointed out to regulate um the energy market. It's, it was driven by agreements of the participants of the associations actually of a network um associations of industry associations and that was quite weak. It wasn't really um any um ex ante regulation. It was only ex post so what means um you can um uh go to court if you don't agree to what they um figured out and what the contract situa situation is or was by then. And it didn't work out

well for a couple of years and then um the majority on the EU level decided no, we, we need a stricter regulation, we need an um authority what is setting up um ex ante the the framework and the framework is the access, third party access to the network, and the other is the costs. So the regulation of um networks, um, fees and the methodology in behind. And that was then by 2001 or 2002, I think, the uh regulator, um until then it was only the um

Telecommunication and Railway Authority has been appointed to become the energy regulator as well. And um with that they are responsible now for the grids of gas and electricity. So since um and that is um a bit more than 2 years. The Federal Network Agency or Bundes Netzgen in German, right. Right, and so you started with the first job was at a new electric utility, uh, called, which one was it? It was Lichtblick, um, uh, by then, um, when I started and, um, well, it was like

um, jumping into, um, uh, yeah, what is this unknown, uh, water, but after just a few weeks, um, I've been ahead of, um, all the established, um. Network or energy utilities um because um we wanted to get access and they never provided access to to any kind of um um um other supplier. So that was um yeah, great learning. And um after a while I said yeah OK so I can do that and then um I got the opportunity to come to to Berlin um with

the ministry um of Economics. Which had been um operating by then it has been called a task force for third party access because there wasn't a regulatory authority and that's why I'm in Berlin still and um that was the time, as I said when um the BNNSR has been appointed. And for how long did you work at the ministry then? Oh yeah, yeah, that was only a year, but that was um much more learning as well because it was highly political. At the end, um, this

task force has been quit because Well, political issues, let's say. Um, and, um, we've been kicked out, so it wasn't just me, there have been, uh, 5 or 6 from the industry helping the ministry with that, and there has been investigations on that later even if that has been lobbying, um, etc. and all that. So I would say it was in between. It was um because Germany wasn't really um driving that forward to to have an um authority. It was um um yeah, let's say Germany

is sometimes uh keen about the benefits but not um that keen about really to to establish the framework to achieve. And that was um uh probably the 2 or 3 year time period. It has been required. And what were the other key um responsibilities you had before now the current one with RAP? Well, I've been um with associations and and retailers and then it became more to be on the regulatory side because there's been always issues on the access and on the regulation of the tariffs

and um what came with all of that and that has been with them on um uh with retailers and um. With the associations on the regulatory side, so on to talk with the ministry with the regulator. Um, in, in the public as well. OK, so you, you drive that forward. You saw the, the topic of regulations both from a ministry then from an, an association and then now as an, an, an NGO one could say or, or yes, so you, you, you have different viewpoints on

the topic of, uh, regulations, right? Yes, indeed, and actually that was um uh the initial point, um, when I've been thinking about well. We, we can only achieve an efficient um transformation of the system if the framework is setting right, if the um incentives um for the economy are there, and that wasn't by then. And that was when I met my my call today's colleagues, they said, yeah, of course we do need, we, we know that every regulation is setting incentives. The other question is if

these are the incentives you're up for. OK, yeah, then we'll, we'll dive into that question in a, in a second. Before doing that, um, what's the, maybe you can give some background on the RAP. What's the background, the history behind it, the mission, and, and your then concrete responsibilities? Sure, thanks. Um, RP has been founded already 30 years ago, I think, yeah, in the US that was, um, even before the markets in the US has been liberalized. In, in the US it's a bit different in

that way that the regulators are appointed or elected for a period of time only. And when the time ended, the knowledge is gone with the person. And that's why uh two regulators. I've been thinking about by then how to keep the knowledge in the system in the market, and that's when they um uh found uh some other guys to finance that and that's when uh rap became a project and that's what we are still named for. And um we are operating in a bit different way

globally so in the US it's more that they are former commissioner. Working while it is um in in Europe, for example, it is more that there are other experience um in in our team as well and even across sectoral more. It's not all from the power system and not all from the regulatory perspective. It is um as well from a transport pers perspective, from um a heat perspectives um and industry, what we added to the team because it's all on the electrification side. So that is

why why Europe is a bit different. We're working and we are as well on in India and China, but um I would say these systems are much further away than the US from at least from the from the European system and within our organization. Unfortunately too, OK, and, and how can one imagine the role of um such an organization? What do you aim to achieve? What are the, the main goals and, and reasons to exist, so to say? Well, actually I would say uh to make

myself useless, um, yeah, well, the, the idea is of course to decarbonize the system, um, um. By, by, yeah, lowest costs. And that means to electrify, setting the right incentives that that all uh folks running into the same direction. Um, but unfortunately, we are not doing yet. So that is what we are financed for by um uh foundations mostly sometimes by contracts from um authorities um but not from the private sector, how we are engaging, but of course we are engaging as well with the private

sector, with other NGOs and and helping to making things public in in one jurisdiction. But um what we found out that the energy markets and even the the regulation is very fragmented um across the world and that it is very helpful to have examples from elsewhere, how things do work and to explain what we can do and what has been um. Proved elsewhere and I would say yeah, mostly in the German context, it is um Germany is running 10 studies before they are changing um a

dot in the sentence, um, while others um are just running um pilot projects and figuring things out and that's why it is a cross fertilization of that. Makes sense. So you try to spread these different best practices across the world as well in the regions you, you named and operate especially. Yes, yes, and actually this is what I like um to do. It is to to learn and to think about how this can be adapted to to another jurisdictions. That is actually great. And let's dive

into some examples or, or also um topics of, of regulations that you think er are key in this new world to enable electrification and decarbonisation. Maybe you can give some examples that come to mind. Sure, so yeah, I think the first it is um that we know that uh decarbonization um works through electrification. This is uh one probably of the biggest achievements over the last um decade because that wasn't clear on the first when I started and uh. In that field, um, so that is definitely

good, but that means, um, how to achieve that by lowest cost. That is, I would say, unclear. And, uh, for example, it is uh still, and then we're diving much more into the details. It is, yeah, we, we need grids to serve the customers for all the needs they do have. That is at least how the um energy system has been built over the last century. Um, to serve the load so we need flexible supply. But that has been changed. With the electrification, with the um

yeah, decreasing cost of supply of mostly of PV and of um wind, and now of um storage as well of the batteries, so that is a huge chance. To change the system. If we continue in the old fashion, it is probably not that beneficial. So, as we all know, we have flexibility, but we are using not the flexibility in the best manner yet. Mhm. So what are the hurdles for unleashing flexibility in regulatory best practices that you have identified? The thinking actually we are not there

yet so I I explored that a couple of times that um quite a lot of people their responsibility to for for operations for even policies on regulation they all still have in mind there's a need and we have to serve the need. From a central perspective, but the system of the future is so different. It is much more decentralized. It is flexible in in bidirectional, and we can help each other with that, but that isn't there, nor the framework. It has to be developed, partially it

is in some jurisdictions, um, but it has to be. Combined for for the needs of local needs in in the first, but on the other hand, that is why electricity is so special. We have a huge benefit by sharing um across huge regions. So let's say for heat we we don't supply um let's say um a load pocket what is 1000 miles away, but on electricity that might make sense. To some extent To some extent, it is good to have a local. Uh, yeah, assets and

and, uh, flexibility as well, and that is the difficulty of the system that is, um, it has more dimensions than the old system and other systems as well. Mm, and maybe one step back. There is different regulatory systems across the world. Can we? Create pockets, there's liberalized markets and non-liberalized markets. Is that a good way to look at um at at the different energy regulatory environments and countries in the world? Yes, definitely that is a very good question, thanks for that. So that is, yeah, and

um to start with that, Europe, for example, it has huge differences, but it is still very homogeneous. So let's say the US for example, is very different in this regard. Um, they have liberalized markets, but they have fully regulated markets as well. And with that, um, we can learn from that, while of course China is totally regulated, there is no more or less no competition at all, um, and looking at energy markets globally, we have, I would say 3 steps. So in the first, you can

uh liberalize um the supply side, you can set up a third party, um, access. Um, by, uh, independent power producers, so that is usually the first step. Then as the second you can set up, um, wholesale markets, competitive wholesale markets, and the third is, um, the top of the ice cream is then, um, um, the competitive retail market. We do have that in Europe. But I would say um if you're coming from a totally regulated market, market, you shouldn't look up at that in the first

So it is um it has its its issues, but let's say these are the three steps and for each of that, you need different kind of framework of regulation, what you do and how. Is it fair to say that the UK is among the most advanced, uh, systems or in in terms of a regulatory framework that is very favorable to new to the new energy world? Yeah, in, uh, at least in Europe it has in, uh, in some regards and actually, um, that's why it's a

pity that the UK left the EU. They have been driving that, uh, development in, in Europe. Now, well, they're still in Europe but not of the regulatory um um yeah and policy making um machine anymore but um yeah that was um of the the prices and of the regulation and let's say. Um, for example, in, in Europe, the UK was the first state they established an incentive-based regulation for the network operators. Um, it's the 2nd or 3rd edition what they established now, um, uh, setting detailed

incentives that the network operators doing X, Y, and Z. That is definitely helpful, um, not just having a framework, what is providing incentives you're not up for in the end. So, but there are other places as well, they, they have, um, uh, things done well in Europe, but of course elsewhere in, in the world too. Right, let's. Get a bit more in the details, so just to name a few of the dimensions that I'm aware of that I would love to, to have you comment or

or maybe compliment on them. So there's the, the, yeah, the grids, and there's the production and there's the, the retail part in the regulatory frameworks in the, let's, let's in the grids part, for example, having more dynamic uh grid fees would be very fruitful for that. We have a lack still of. Um, dynamic tariffs in the, in the grid fee structure that reflects the availability of congestion in the grids or the availability of renewables and so the the capacity of these grids, that's, there will be

one interesting, um, topic if you, if you can elaborate. Then the second is to what extent the retail tariffs. Uh, dynamic going to the spot, spot, uh, tariffs where you have, uh, 15 minutes changes of electricity tariffs, but some markets have them, some don't. Uh, yeah, so how, how that impacts and how it will spread, and we see that the EU has with the clean energy package since 2021 mandated that dynamic tariffs need to come. To what extent do they have to be every 15 minutes

and everybody will implement them or we're still in the process of implementing them and other countries would. Take, uh, take notice as well in the world and, and copy that. So just to, to give two examples, uh, and, and then, and then a third one maybe is uh bidirectional charging where. We, we see that there's grid fees or taxes involved with charging and discharging a battery in a, in a vehicle, and then oftentimes this is a fundamental hurdle for, for that value to be unleashed. So

are there others that you would highlight or would you comment on on the ones I mentioned? Yeah, sure, I'd I'd like to do definitely. So in the, in the first it is, um, the, the networks, um, in the past they had been built for the for the load and, um, not charged on the time when the networks has been used and that is in, um, quite a lot of places, um, still the truth. What means um that the. Asset owners and actually that is the incentives

to build assets, so to extend their their their asset base, um, at the end that is uh what regulation provides quite often, is um building a copper plate. But we know at the end, with the flexibility, we do have on the demand side, and we, we can use or if we are not incentivized, maybe we are not using, and if we're all plugging in our car in the evening by returning back home from work, that means to to build these networks, no one is up for

We can't afford at the end. So that is why we have to think about the flexibility. And in the first, um, the flexibility came into play by the wholesale market prices because we know the sun is not shining in the night, obviously. Wind is fluctuating as well, and that need to be reflected in in tariffs to adjust the demand for the first time to the load. But since the industry, the energy industry, um, I would say has been quite comfortable with the, um, former revenue streams

with their cash cows and the regulation, there was not much innovation, and that's why the EU set up the framework and say with this obligation, you have to offer a dynamic tariff. Based on the wholesale market price, what is driven more from the renewables, so that is good at the end that we do have that now across Europe, but that is only then on the generation side and the networks that is still um. In the discussion or in the making, let's say that some of the

European countries do have that pricing already or let's say it's a majority what has that about 2022 member states do have time varying network fees in place. Germany just introduced this year for some customers indeed, indeed, and it is not mandatory, so that is. We are a bit behind and then we have the discussion in Germany. How can you deal with the system if you can't meter, if you can't measure, if you can't charge? Well, hopefully we're speeding up, um, of course we need smart meters

digitalization, well, I would say, um, we can learn a lot from others. Yeah. And are the countries that are not um as advanced as other countries in terms of like the UK or or other liberalized markets, are they, um, adjusting. Is there a trend for the world to harmonize regulatory environments, say, developing countries, for example? If it's globally, I'm, I would say there's a, yeah, maybe a trend, but it is not so obvious. Let's say in the, in the first to the EU I would say

yes. So we have seen, uh, for example, that there are a lot of guidelines on the EU level and regulation, but for example the network um regulation or the methodologies of the tariff design, they are all with the member states. Uh, luckily Germany moved that now, um, uh, to the BNSR to the regulator what was before the government only, so that is a step forward and now we are figuring out that Europe is still so diverse by tradition somehow what the countries did or what they

explained why they're doing, others didn't even explain or whatever. That we need more harmonization so we have an um a wholesale market what is interacting and uh I would say in most places in a good way, but the retail markets across Europe are so different and that is why businesses are struggling with it because you're established in the UK and then you're stepping into the German market and wondering about. How is that working out? What do I have to know to establish a business? Where is

a revenue stream within that, Ama? How can I learn from that? So that is the UK, but that is even let's say from from Denmark to to France, there are huge differences and that is um why the commission is pushing for that now. For example, they will come up um uh this month I think they promised to do um with uh guidelines on the network tariffs. Mm, interesting. Yeah, there's like also a good overview by, you know, Smart and the I think they also have good

overviews on, on this regulatory frameworks of different countries with the network tariffs. Yeah, yeah, indeed and uh sorry, one is is not an official guideline by the commission, it is an um a suggestion and the first, but they said in public, well, if no one is listening to his suggestion, we are providing, we might think further so. Makes sense. And the in talking about the grid tariffs, is there also a one hurdle for electric vehicles in particular is also having higher enough capacity to charge. At

different sites and there's a huge also grid fees related to connecting to the grid, is that something that you see will change or is there something in the making as well from a regulatory standpoint? What's your view on what should be the best way to enable as well more companies to move to electric vehicles without being forced to pay these massive amount of grid reinforcement fees? Yes, so that is, um, and in this regard Germany is in the forefront. We, Germany has a lot of studies

what we might face of um uh grid investments if we want to fulfill our, um, transitional targets, and we learned this might or it should be about €700 billion in the next 20 years what we have to invest in the networks only and yeah it's I would say it is too much even um. But the, the question is where's these numbers coming from? And I would say there's a huge chance to deal with uh much less than that. But we have to make that. Yeah, to

think about how can we be smarter. And to use what we have in a better way. And for example, some places do have regulations in place where the utilization of the network is part of the incentive given to the operators. And I think this is a very good thing that the network operator can say, yeah, before I'm investing into a new uh substation, um, maybe I can give an incentive to the users to avoid the peak hours, to avoid the investments. And by doing so, that

is probably that we can cut off a lot of these um predicted investments, right, yeah, and you, you see, you, you mentioned already the bridge fees being more dynamic and coming in in Germany with the NBG 14A, that's more for the very, very low voltage than for the medium voltage. There's uh in Germany at least there's a so-called atuche netsnuz song. And, uh, Strom NF 19, is, is there gonna be a lot of changes related also to medium voltages we're talking fleets. It's gonna be more

and more electric trucks that will have also that incentive. Yeah, definitely, and uh to your previous question you asked because of the, the, uh, cost to build up um for the interconnection to the system. And um Bauo and suss for example, what is uh what we have in Germany and I would say this is all still from the old system we are charging the people to connect. But from my perspective that is not the the the the crucial issue it is how we use the system

yeah we we should connect everyone um who want to be connected for yeah by by the cost um what the interconnection is uh but everything else is for the use of the system. If I want to use the system at peak times, of course I have to be charged for and at the end. I would say a candlelight dinner, get a real value by doing so if you avoid the demand, what is usually in Europe or in Germany in the winter evenings. While it, it is

um quite cheap to use um a network by noon when the sun is shining, and we shouldn't uh penalize um the the demand by charging a cow in, in that moment of time. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah, so that's um you're referring as well to the fee structure now that penalizes on the based on the peak you generate but not. You don't um determine which time, it doesn't matter which time you generate the peak, but we should measure which time it was that you generated the peak

when if the network is not congested at that time, it's not a big problem, whereas if it was congested, it's a bigger problem, right? Right, and um. The point is regulation is uh or it should provide the incentives ahead. That is why we need the pricing ahead and it's not helpful for the customize us if we informed the day after that the charging I did yesterday is um instead of my annual vacation because it was a peak time. I should get in kind of incentive or

information ahead of that to avoid that, right. And um that's actually what we need and um um since the the future system is driven mostly by the weather conditions, so of wind, of sun, and of temperatures, and of course of our behaviors so it's, is it a holiday or is this a weekday, that matters as well, and that is known 24 hours ahead. Exactly. I've seen you published a few interesting case studies with the RAP. Um, one is called the, the, the, the savings for smart

charging Electric cars and trucks in Europe, a case study for France, or another one is, um, unlocking flexibility, no regret actions to remove barriers to demand response, uh, addressed to AA, so the regulators in Europe, uh, and I think you also met Habeck at the bidirectional event, uh, that was a while back. Out of all these work, is there a few highlights you would like to share as well with the audience or? Um, yeah, takeaways from your side. I would say that the highlight is we're

on the right track and um it is good to hear for example what you mentioned um that Harbig has been aware about that is not just charging. It is bidirectional charging that is a huge chance and we should roll out the red carpet for that. It isn't there yet, at least not in all um uh places, but this is what I still, yeah, seeing we are moving forward. And, and we have been talking about bidirectional charging also some quite some time so from also maybe a

meeting like like the one you you saw with Harbeck that was. Uh, very much a powerful politician, at least in a powerful role, taking that topic in his agenda very high up on the agenda, but still we are not seeing as fast progress as we would like to have. What's your take on why does it take so long? I would say it is, yeah, we are still locked in in in the the odd thinking that is um I would say yeah with the network operators, with

the utilities, how they have been established and um what their revenue streams are, and that is even partially with the regulation so they are looking at the ones they are regulating in the first and not having in mind how a future system. Could look like or should look like and how we can achieve police costs so that is not always there yet and um to to come back to that um the bidirectional charging that is definitely it is complex because we have responsibilities in the system

we don't want to face a blackout as it uh happened uh recently in in Spain and Portugal um and therefore we need responsibility for all these tiny assets connected to the system and making it. Big and and useful and beneficial to all, but we have to know when you charge your car, at least partially. Um And that, yeah, we need IT structures for that. We need coordination, we need information, transparency, for example, um, all of that. And that is um I think it is still when

I started my job with web it's still the same uh looking across borders it's helpful. It is in the energy business but it is for our entire life it is helpful to see something else than the things you're used to. Yeah, that goes back to one of the, the things of the words, concepts I like to use. There's software defined vehicles, and I think the energy sector is also software defined energy. And the, as you also highlighted in the beginning, the, the, the software world was

not ingrained in the way the energy system operated in the past as much as it today and this requires a complete new way of operating right from traditional players, right, and it is when let's say. Network operators thinking about, well, there's a huge potential of the EVs of all this battery, huge storage we can use to balance the system. Their thinking is I want to operate these resources to make my system cheaper, but they are not asking the customers for. I, I wouldn't say that we

have to ask the customers for in the first, but we have to put the right places in place. So if we say, yeah, if it costs a lot right now. Then there will be market providers, aggregators, suppliers, they will come up with offers to the customers and they have to convince the customers to, to their products. And then they can help the system, the network operators to come up with the cheapest and um solution we are for. But with that, it is. Up to the customer

and to the market. So sometimes I'm surprised still by by learning what markets are doing, if they are the right prices, and that is great. So when I've been asked how can that look like, I say, well, I have apps on my phone. I don't know how they do work, but if they are telling me the right things, I can decide on or I can adjust that they are doing the right things instead of looking every 5 minutes on my phone. And that's what we need

as well, and I don't have to set that up by myself. This is the only thing I know we have to set the prices right. If we are coming up with the wrong price incentives, the people will do. Not the best what they could do. Yeah, yeah, so in other words, we need the grid operators and, and the utilities setting a certain price structure and then let the market do the rest, right, right, exactly, that's, that's the truth from my perspective but um Germany has um

almost 900 distribution network operators in place. And what? I wouldn't say that they are really um digitalized yet. They don't have smart meters implemented and asking them um how about is it um a time varying pricing of networks. Say, oh wow, that sounds uh fancy. How about dynamic pricing? Oh my God.

So uh we can speed up a bit on that end. Yeah, no, I agree. And then for the electric fleets, as this is also a lot about the electric fleets and and smart charging, is there any challenge you foresee in the upcoming years to electrify our fleets and, and what would you suggest are like ways to to tackle those challenges? So in the first, I think fleets are much easier than um a private car. In a private household only fleets are much easier because you know

usually when and where they're driving, you have certain points where you can charge and you can adjust first the infrastructure for charging and then the price optimization with a wholesale or retail market um and the networks. So there is a huge potential and then even there it is much easier to start with bidirectional charging. So in the first it is that the interconnection to the system is um usually um the most um cost incentive investment for for the flexibility and that's why quite a lot are

hesitating to install um a bigger connection to the system. But I said, I'm up for you to make it as big as possible, but to put the prices for the operation in place. And with that, then bidirectional charging of fleets, that is um I would say the initial step to do that then at the end even with um uh yeah private households or. Let's say apartments and car charging on the streets. Makes sense. And do you distinguish between the types of fleets where you see more

potential than other types of fleets? Well, I, I would say it's economy of scale. The, the, the biggest are easiest to start with, um, if you're operating a DHL um or someone by that size. Of course, um, it's something else than having, uh, 3 cars, um, for whatever kind of delivery in my neighborhood. That is, um, That is and um it is connected to that how much of depot charging I have in place. Um, if I can, um, yeah, rely, partially at least on nighttime charging

um, means I'm more flexible than if I have a fleet that is operating on long distances and rely on fast charging. So that's what we see that is that will be much more expensive to charge a truck after 4 or 5 hours of running full speed on a highway. To recharge then in another 35 minutes, that is more expensive and that doesn't have a lot of flexibility. But the combination of both of that, that is um uh I think where the benefits even for for businesses

are. Makes sense and and for nowadays a big hot topic is uh nowadays is the electric trucks that are coming more and more and growing very fast even though they started very the share was very small in in the last few years but. They're really picking up momentum. I think the goal is in 2030 to have a third of the new sold trucks to be electric in Europe. Uh, do you have any views there on, on the challenges ahead or the opportunities as well ahead for

electric trucks? Yeah, and I think the development will be more. Straightforward than the private car sector. We have seen so many ups and downs with it, but uh trucks, that is a commercial business, so it it depends on the TCO, the cost of total ownership and. That's what we heard from the manufacturers. The, the trucks will be there, they will be sold to the market, they will be used, and no one is up for if my strawberries to end up in Cologne um because of lack

of charging and can't be delivered to to to Munich, for example. So, um, that is um what we can um yeah, predict for the future. But what we can see on the other hand is that the network connection, how we did for the last decades, it requires almost a decade to implement a fast charging point, what has to be connected to the high voltage level. And I would say the car manufacturers or truck manufacturers are a bit faster. Yes. Yeah, so there will be the high

voltage lines, uh, need to be sped up, uh, to, to be able to cope with all that capacity, right? Right, right, it is, um, uh, yeah, and the markets can deal even with uh limited infrastructures with congestion, but it is so important having these incentives in place that they are building at the right spot that they're using when it's um available or when it's cheap and. Yeah, making the most of it, what we do have and uh to avoid unuseless or avoidable investments. Makes sense. Is

there any other, uh, last messages you would like to leave here in the podcast for the listeners? Uh, that you feel are important to consider in all the topics, in the wide array of topics that we touched. Well, I What is it participate in the system because it is different from the past when the consumer has to be supplied. Now it is that the consumer can act if it starts with a balcony solar with your car, with a heat pump, with a battery, whatever, I think

it is um in the first it's more independency, uh, resilience to the system to some it might make fun only, whatever it is. Check it out. Yeah, nice, yeah, definitely, uh, the prosumer, as, as it's also called, and we can have a big role compared to the past where it was maybe boring. Uh, there are challenges but also great opportunities. Yeah. And finally, how can people learn more about you or about your work or connect in case they have questions? Well, sure, so I'm on social

media, for example, on LinkedIn or Blue Sky. You can find myself or on raponline.org. Um, there are all the information, what we are doing globally, um, locally, etc. even on the industry side, on the decarbonization, what has its own challenges as well on the heat side, etc. Excellent. Thanks, Andreas, and wish you still a great day. Yeah, thanks a lot, pleasure to be here. And this was a great episode with Andreas Jah from the RAP, the Regulatory Assistant Project. My key takeaways are that. There are

several diff differences between markets and regions. We see liberalized markets and unliberalized markets. The UK being at the forefront, the US having a mixed system and the EU being quite harmonized, but some markets having. More or less. Great regulatory aspects. We see grid fees being a very important issue and how that's structured or bi-directional charging being impeded by also how tax and grid fees are being structured. There's like traditional players that lack software skills as well to enable these type of business models. We see that

the world gets more and more harmonized and it's also changing fast considering that 25 years ago there was nearly no liberalized markets in Europe and it and it changed due to the cost advantages. That are coming from that and that the keyword flexibility is also very much shaped by regulations and that was the key objective of the RAP from the get-go as well to make sure that we have a cost effective transition through great regulatory frameworks and they do this globally, which is fascinating as they

might be one of the very few organizations having such a deep understanding. Of regulatory frameworks and trying to share best practice across different markets. He also identified fleets as a plannable source of flexibility for both smart charging in one direction or bidirectional charging. And really his final take was to be engaged and try to improve the system as a prosumer or as an active participant. Thanks for tuning in and please leave a review or follow, follow us, give us 5 stars, that would be great and

share this with somebody who could enjoy listening to this episode. See you soon.

Ep. 14: Andreas Jahn of RAP – How Regulation Shapes the Future of Smart Charging & Flexibility

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