Ep. 30: Jürgen Mayerhofer, CEO & Co-Founder of Enspired – Battery Optimization, AI and the Software-Defined Energy World

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things, energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

Welcome back to Smart Charge. Today we are with Jurgen Meyerhofer, founder and CEO of Inspired, an optimizer of battery storage. Jurgen's path runs from the early days of gas market liberalization in Austria. Think the famous Baumgarten node, capacity booking and real physics to today's software-driven power markets where batteries are dispatched in real time. We get practical about intraday trading. Germany alone sees 10+ million price updates per day, stacking day ahead intraday and ancillary services, and why the truly hard part is the last mile of automation

Connecting the EMS to a trading platform that can forecasters decide and dispatch quarter hour by quarter hour. There are 96 products per day. Juergen explains how Inspired connects to batteries via EMS optimizes at 100 megawatt scale projects, and why batteries can work without subsidies. If you respect location, grid impact and build for full automation rather than manual lever pushing. If you care about turning storage into a profit-making grid, supporting resource, this one is your field guide. I'm very proud to have Jurgen as well advising Ridog

And let's dive in. Hello Jurgen. How are you today? Hi, Claudio. Very well, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, happy to have you and um so glad to learn more about you and inspired. And so let's start uh with you first. Uh, I know you have uh quite a long background already in the energy space. What was the inception where you knew that this was the space you wanted to, um, yeah, work on and uh what were the, the key, if you had to just spend one

minute or two about your, your background, the key steps in your journey so far? OK, who, where, where do I start? So, first of all, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, was always very interested in computer sciences, so for me it was, uh, that, it's clear to work in that space. And, uh, I applied for a lot of different jobs, um, without any clear goal, I would say. And, uh, by accident, um, I moved to a, nowadays you would call it startup, right? Back then it was just

a small company, um, with, with like as entry number 18 and, uh, it was 2002 when the natural gas market in Austria was liberalized, so we moved away from, uh, fax messages, uh, to, uh, to nominate, uh, natural gas imports. To fancy Excel spreadsheets via email, um, meanwhile, still known as the, the very famous KISS formats. Um, and that's how I by accident, uh, stumbled into, um, near the energy market. So actually, my background is in natural gas logistics, if you want to call it like

this. So I, my first, uh, bigger project was, uh, writing the algorithm to optimize physical gas flows, right? So, with compressor stations and imports and exports and Back then it was a nodal system, right? A lot of discussions, uh, going on in the power market about nodal pricing, right? This is uh how natural gas works, uh. 25 years ago-ish, so, um, and as soon as I found out, uh, that I'm really moving physically natural gas and the pipeline goes along the highway that I had to

drive home and I passed the compressor station. I actually thought that's quite cool, right, because software had a, had a physical impact, right, and I knew um what, what was going on there physically. So you were like managing gas flows as you're managing now power, power flows. Um, yes, actually the start was really uh import, uh, in, in Baumgarten, that's a famous, um, node in, in Austria where we import, uh, from Slovakia, so mainly Gazprom gas back then. So O OMV, the Austrian oil and gas

uh, major was, uh, I think the first ones to conclude a long-term contract. Uh, with Gazprom And that gas is then is distributed to Germany, to Hungary, to Italy, via various pipelines, and you have to put capacity there in different qualities, right? Also that's a topic meanwhile in uh uh in power markets, so if you have firm or interruptible capacity, etc. Um, and then really consider physics, right? Um, so, uh, different heating values for natural gas, high, low heating values, um, back then we had something

called different gas days. Um, so, we had, uh, in the, in the control area, so DSO, uh, power equivalent, uh, we had 0 to 0, um, as a, as a calendar day, basically, uh, on the transport, we had 6 to 6, um, and for import, we, uh, worked in 8 to 8, uh, o'clock schedules, and we had to bring that all together, um, while The colleagues in Germany, uh, worked on a calendar day in kilowatt hours, right? Um, so no messing, no messing around with heating

values and, and all that stuff, so. But actually gas has a quality right compared to power. So, so that was a kind of a, uh, energy, the energy background, and you also had a bit of an entrepreneurial, uh, side of things and there you could also highlight some of the milestones that led you to inspired in your background entrepreneurially speaking. Poor. Um, I mean, I always used to smirk uh to work in small HR innovative companies, right? By, not because I've chosen them, I think they

have rather chosen me as, as their employee. Um, so from the first company with, uh, liberalizing the gas markets to being a freelancer, uh, helping the customer, doing market entries, uh, across Europe, um, To doing, uh, consultancy for short-term power trading, so my whole career has been very, um, yeah, driven by innovation in the software space and energy, and always luckily in roles where I could take a lot of decisions, take on, uh, a lot of responsibility. Like in my, my previous role as managing director

of Visotec. Um, super small Austrian company back then, um, and scaled across Europe within 2.5 years organically, so no, no investors behind, etc. So there were quite some Uh, some rewards in the past, let's call it like this, for taking risks, right? Um. So I think there was not a single time whenever we Um, when we did the bigger strategic move that it failed, right? So I'm, I'm knocking on wood now, but, uh, so far we, we had a very good gut feeling for, for bold

moves. Um, and I think that also gave us the confidence for inspired, rights, the, um, that, uh, first people, uh, who are, who, who joined Inspired, we have worked together, we have seen that it works, uh, what we're doing. Everybody was clear about, uh, his or her role in, in the organization, so I would say it's, uh, It was the natural result of, of 20 years' experience. To do what we do now at Inspired. Yeah, it's fascinating. And to what extent do you attribute your last

uh, experience with Viso to inspired? What were the, the building blocks, so to say that you are now also leveraging. I think one topic that we all learned there is scalability. It's Very easy to lose yourself in, uh, chasing exciting opportunities, right? Uh, little project here, little project there, um. But it just takes forever um uh to, to scale a company. Um, another part of scalability, if you're organically growing, right, you're always in that mode of first signing a customer. OK, now I have enough money

to recruit two more people and I have to sign the next projects, right? And you're You're in theory always lagging behind, um, and if you really want to be bold and see an upcoming opportunity and you want to invest upfront, then it's really hard to do in a, in, in the organic way, unless you're already a huge corporate, right, and you have money on the side and you just invest it. But if you're growing it from zero, bootstrapped organically, it's, um, I think you will be

too slow for some markets um when you think about um AI advancements, when you think what's going on with battery storage or how fast the energy industry has gone in, in, in general, right? Um, I'm coming from a time where everything took years and nothing, nobody was in a hurry in the energy trans or energy industry. There was not a discussion about energy, energy transition. There was no volatility, no nothing, right? It was very stable, regulated business, and, and now I have the feeling it's exactly

the opposite, right? Um, regulation cannot keep up incumbent players, um, struggling a bit, uh, sometimes with speed. Um, So, um, there, there is a lot of learnings we've taken and also, um, things that we wanted to avoid in a sense. So we have also learned what's not that smart, right? For example, we have been or had been an, an Austrian company and everything in German, right? Internal documentation, emails, uh, contracts, whatever. Which is a problem, uh, if you scale, uh, geographically in sales, which is a

problem if you onboard your first employee, um, who doesn't speak German, right? So you either limit yourself and say, sorry, only German speakers allowed, um, and, and you miss out on a lot of great talent or you do that fundament fundamentally different. So that was something, um, We did from day one, and inspired everything is English, all contracts are English, we rather had to struggle the other way around. The German customers asked for German contracts and we were like, 00 my God, we don't have them

right, even as Austrian company. Um, so there were things that have worked very well like focus on scalability and what, what does it take, and there were other things that we just learned because it was Very cumbersome in the past, right? How, how, how we set it up, so I think it's a, it's a good mix of different experiences. Cool. Yeah, and, and talking software and uh and languages and cultures um and scaling, well, I'd be very curious also to hear your opinion and so as

we are in this age of AI as well and, and there's plenty of Um, companies built in the US, uh, that are successful also from the internet age, software companies, and we seem to struggle in Europe compared to, to the US and, and China and some other regions. Whereas you are a brilliant example of, uh, also a software company that is, uh, successful internationally and has been able to, to develop top-notch, um, software out of Europe. Uh, what's your take on, on this, and, and what

makes you optimistic that Europe can also turn things around and, and what do you think, do you attribute to, to this weakness of Europe and how come they're not more, uh, inspired than, than Wiesel and Jur Meyerhovas out there? I, I think there are quite some, right? The, the problem that we have is, um. We reached some kind of glass ceiling at, at some point in terms of scaling, um, so I think what I think entrepreneurship in Europe is still Not recognized as super valuable, right

We still live from, uh, you know, the well-known brands that have been established decades ago and are now big companies. Um, I think it's pretty good in, in Europe to get early-stage funding, right, up to a certain stage, but you see, if you really want to scale business, very often, um, investors from the US, Asia, etc. Um, are involved, so I think we have the talent and we have the technology, but we, we're just not brave or bold enough, right, to really say, I mean, you

could challenge me now and say, why didn't, uh what did you hold, what did hold you back from raising €500 million and Go all in, right, and it's not uh the vision, it's not, it's, it's just the capital, right? And other companies burn billions of euros based, based on the vision, right? And typically these companies are sitting outside of Europe, right? And these are the admired ones, um, and I think that's there is a one, a financing issue and the other is, I think culturally. Everything

has been working well, right? The automotive industry, but nobody thinks back of, I mean, they also started small, um, and, and now they're established, and I think there is not, not enough support in terms of capital reg sometimes even regulation and sometimes just recognition of, I don't know, politicians, uh, other industry, etc. So, um. That, that's my take. I know that's a very high level one, but I think if somebody would say, hey Jurgen, do you want to have 200 million, um, to go totally crazy

uh, on a global level, we would know how to. To spend that money, right? I'm pretty sure. OK. So I'm looking forward. You already have raised your Series B. Obviously, you will probably not stay there and we'll come back to that. Just one more point and uh before we move and deep dive into, into Inspired and what, what you do to the point we just made. Is there, uh, in your view, um, we talk a lot about decentralization of the energy world, but in my view

we don't talk enough about the software definition of the energy world that these changes. We talk about in mobility as, as we are in the intersection of mobility and energy. We, there's always software concept of software defined vehicle coming over and over. I feel in the energy world, we don't talk enough about the energy world also being transitioning towards the software defined, uh, energy world. Uh, I, I'd love to have your take on, on that. I mean, you know, every, everything we, we do is software

right? Everything is automated, so no human intervention from, uh, from the point in time, um. And the algorithm is, uh, is life, so, from automated retraining, uh, to, to optimizing the parameters, uh, to adapting to fundamentals, um, situations. Um, I think, to be honest, it will be the only way and, uh, because decentralized small assets are fundamentally different, uh, to dispatch to manage than, uh, our centralized large assets, right? Um, I think incumbent players are extremely good at managing their large portfolios. Um, but what we

see is that we just lack, uh, as, as an energy industry in general, we lack execution capabilities for decentralized setups, right? I mean, ranging from smart meter to, I, I wouldn't even call it software, right? That you need there, um, from smart meter rollout, uh, to behind the meter optimization, that's all. Super nascent, right? Uh, I have all this fancy setup at home from TV to charger to battery storage to heat pump, whatever, and The solutions are just. Not where they are on slides in reality

Unfortunately, so I think there is way enough, not enough focus on software and technology. Um, it's, it's still, um, get this battery, buy it, install it, and you're done, and I think that leaves out quite some potential. Um, and of course you have to. The incumbent world that kind of holds us back a bit, right, because you politically I see that, yeah, there is also different directions to be taken with conventional power plants, etc. so I think um, Some stakeholders are stuck in The old world

that they know since decades, um, which goes back to the, the previous question, right? If, if they would be bold on technology, there should be way more investment investments in AI, um, in, in energy tech companies and whatsoever, but I think, That's they did not realize it yet because the incumbents tell them guys everything is fine, build some gigawatts of whatever power plant type, right, and we will solve it the old way, um, which is correct, right? It worked in the past. Why shouldn't it work

now, but you just have to ignore the energy transition and, uh, all the other things, so. I think players will win that have good software capabilities. Thanks. Now, I'd like to do a funny maybe exercise. Uh, one of the most impressive things you have next to building uh inspired is that you're also a father of five kids and, uh, how do you explain inspire to your kids? Like if you have to explain it in a, in a simple way, in a short way, um, what's, what

what does dad do, so to say? So, um, the, the easiest one is if we're in the car, right, and in Austria we have quite some wind farms. I, I always tell them that we take the power out of that wind farm, store it, and deliver it whenever it's, it's needed, right, so that the lights are on. That's the. That's a pitch for 4 year olds, right? I've, of course, uh, shown them our projects, uh, on pictures, right, um, 100 megawatts that we optimize and then

they are blown away that the battery could be that big, right? They still, you know, they're kids, they think of the small little things, uh, for their toys, that's a battery in the world, um, but that's the easiest one, right? Uh, having something tangible because it's. Basically impossible to describe software platform, full automation that doesn't mean anything, but if you have a physical wind farm that you pass by with the car, and you show them a picture of a battery and you say you just store

it and release it later. They're most probably fine with it. Nice one. I like it. And what do you do, uh, if you explain shortly, uh, to an energy expert, somebody who, who knows the industry well, uh, how do you explain inspired and short? Then I would typically explain that we're a commercial optimizer of battery storage, right? So we connect via the EMS, um, with our platform, um, connect on the other side to all markets, which is wholesales and ancillary services. And with our fully automated

setup, take care of all the forecasting and bidding decisions in between, with the goal to generate maximum revenue for the asset owner. That would be a. Something like this-ish explanation makes sense and typically there is still coming uh follow-up question and there are still coming follow-up questions exactly and that's a good segue to the, to the follow-up questions. So in, in, in the value stream, so what, what was also the insight compared to other, uh, the conventional trading that was done before inspired, so to say

you know, in the era of inspired, what would you say? How would you compare it? Um, I would say that. I think the era before, also where I've worked, right, um, um, I was involved in CCGTs and whatever, I think a focus was very much on the long term, on a very detailed modeling of the asset, right? You wouldn't know um what you need to do for a spot optimization of the CCGT what to consider, right? From ramps to temperatures to whatever, um. So I think

um the last decades were really focused on the technical details of the assets and they had optimization, and I think this is where we have seen our opportunity because uh when we asked um incumbent players, are you optimizing your flex uh do you optimize your flexibility, they were like, sure. But what they meant is they optimized it, uh, bid it into the day ahead auction, and then they went for lunch, right? Um, and that was flex optimization back then, and it's not wrong, right? It, it

is actually flex optimization. Um, but up to that point, you just needed to be very good and uh, In optimizing your, your asset, right? Get your dispatch out, get, get your shadow prices and all that stuff, your, your PFCs, you bid, and you're done, right? And then you told, um, the guys at the power plant, do this tomorrow, what, what had just been awarded in the, in the day ahead auction. Um, and the last mile is way more complex with intraday and real-time dispatch. So, from

both sides, right? From, for dispatching the power plant when it's not fully automated, right, there's still power plants where people are sitting there and pushing the levers more or less, right? Um, so, so that's a change management topic rather, to convince the people who have been just ramping it up once a day. That they should now dispatch a quarter-hourly schedule, right, and explain it to them after 3 decades of, of doing the same stuff to the software um capabilities that you need, right? Um, I mean

there are some tools out there. But if you want to be really exceptional, and a standard tool will Just not give you an edge, right, compared to all the others who buy the same standard tool. Um, so I think that's, that still makes it for quite some of the incumbent players really tricky and this, this change in, in mode of operation, that suddenly there is a lot of value in the last mile of, of Flex optimization and that you'll need software and technology for it, right

And automated processes, and so I think that's fundamentally different and that's um Yeah, this is where we jumped in and said, we see an opportunity where we can be better than incumbent players because we don't have to compete. Um, in the other areas, right, they're doing this since decades. They, they know what they do. So just maybe to not lose the listeners or for the for the listeners' sake. We are talking about the problem, fundamental problem that you're trying to solve or that you solve is

that um companies are not able to automatically also control. Any assets, that's one big, um, I would say one big dimension and the other is being able to react to more market signals and predict better how these market signals should interact with an asset, right? That's set in a, in a, correct me if I'm wrong. You could call it like this, right? Because the, the new signals that you, that you mentioned is, for example, in the, intraday price changes, right? More than 10 million. Updates per

day in Germany, for example, somebody has to listen to them and it's for sure not a human, um, I mean, you can and, and give it a try. Uh, but that requires technology, right, um, to be, to be very efficient with that, and I think that's just a, a paradigm shift in, in how you optimize flexible assets. Especially flex resets. Yeah And the, and the opportunity also maybe um for the, for just laying some groundwork. There are um the spot markets that is that are composed

of the day ahead and the intraday and so you can um your price is usually a result of the volatility of renewables much more. are influenced by the volatility of renewables much more and the result of um the, the offer and the demand at at 15 minute slots. That's the one optimization that you do and you're also, I think participating in the balancing services markets which are the transmission system operators. The grids that are trying to get the capacity that flows through the different cables at

all times a stable at 50 hertz, uh, right? And the, and then, and then within the TSOs because I'm sure we will use these terminologies, there's different markets and there's the very short term FCR, uh, and then there's the, the a bit longer term AFR that are, that are to be distinguished, right? I would even argue argue that all markets that you have mentioned um are kind of balancing markets in a sense, right? Because, the big difference for wholesales, you traded before delivery, uh, so we

can trade now for tonight and even for tomorrow already, um, all the 50 minute products, and 96 for tomorrow. Um, and that's kind of part of, uh, for example, if we stay with Germany, um, the market model that you're forced to trade out your renewable, um, deltas, uh we call it, so updates. So if, if you're at a certain point in time closer to delivery, see, oh my God, there is more PV or less PV or more wind, uh, then expect that you have to trade

that, uh, the difference, uh, so that's kind of a pre-balancing, if you would skip that like it was in the past, you would have to Take the full delta between what you thought yesterday and that they had auction, and that what is really uh happening in ancillary services, and ancillary service then happen, happens during the 15 minutes delivery period. So the TSO says This is happening or the frequency is automated, but this is what, um, I'm seeing with the grid. I need assets to help me

right, if there is less PV than expected even half an hour ago, if there is a power plant outage, um, but I think the, the whole process that you described helps balancing the grid, right, and, uh, either before or during delivery in, in closer to real time and, and you engage in all of these, um, you said, yes, sure, um, that's, uh. That was kind of the. The innovation for battery storages, right, if you look back 4 years from now, batteries were all in frequency containment

reserve, the FCR you have mentioned, which is Um, let's call it pretty easy to manage because of a frequency controller on site that measures on-site frequency, and if there is too much, uh, electricity in the grid, uh, you charge and vice versa, right? So it's a rather passive service there were, there was no creative bidding strategy or whatsoever. Um, and over the last 4 years that's transformed to a fully-fledged algorithmic, uh, optimization problem, right, um, trying to find the optimum of how and where to participate

um, with your battery storage. And very interesting. And are there limits to your solution geographically speaking? So, uh, all that we're talking about right now is the liberalized markets, I understand. So any market that is still in the old world, so before 1997 in, in Europe, I'm not sure, uh, how it is exactly in the US or how the history of liberalized, uh, uh, power markets were in all countries, but So what is it correct that you're limited by the um by the countries that are

not liberalized or yeah, to, to be precise, um, so to limited um. To have the biggest added value of our software, um, or our service actually, right, because you also get route to market uh exception not only, uh, so we don't license the software but just the full service. You would ideally have um ancillary services or balancing markets organized by the TSOs, which is typically the case, plus a liquid wholesales market, um. Or, um, uh, also imbalance markets like the Netherlands or Denmark, um, etc. So

several revenue streams, um, if you have a country where it's still, uh, FCR would be dominant, right, um, and there is no wholesales market, you can use our software. But it will not provide a huge uplift compared to what incumbents do, right? So that, that would be a, a red flag for us to, to enter that market because we only go if, if we, if we add more value, so Europe is Well suited in general. Uh, we're also entering, uh, the Japanese market, uh, with a

partner. Uh, announcement to, to follow soon. Um, US is differently organized, uh, via the ISIS and in 5 minutes granularity but would work. Australia same, but I would not argue for every country on this, uh, for, for the more than 200 on, on this planet, right? So we need a certain Infrastructure of a liberalized market, right? So pool for liquidity, um, and, and different services, otherwise, the optimization problem is not, not big enough, right, that it requires us. But let's say, uh, to take one example

that I'm, I think is always underdiscussed in the Western world and it's still shaping the energy transition as no other. How would inspired be used in China? Or could that be an option? I think in, in theory, yes, last time I talked with somebody like 34 weeks ago about it and I think it's, I'm not clear yet if, if spot marks, stock markets are fully established and uh accessible for third parties, etc. and that would be things that we just use, right, so it has to

be liberalized and uh um and allows equal access, uh, also for third party players. Um, but if that's the case, um, China would be one. I just haven't heard or talked to anybody who said, hey guys, uh, China, uh, has everything you need, right? I think it's on its way. I've also been in contact to have another example, uh, with the Indian Power Exchange already before inspired, right, because they were establishing a spot market. Um, so I think there are some, uh, some countries, um, Emerging

in, in that sense, uh, that, that they look, uh, which market models have been, uh, proven successful in, in, in other regions. And, and just lean onto them, right? They don't copy them, but they say, OK, it works with these qualities, it makes sense, right? It's physical products, right? It's great frequency, it's the same basically in every country, even if there is different uh. Uh, if, if you have 60 instead of 50 hertz, etc. but the The, the fundamental concept is the same, right? So no

limitations, let's say then uh regulatory maturity or liberalization maturity is the is the limiting factor for us to go there. And is your vision of where the energy world is going, I mean, I'm talking really world as the whole world, that we will have 100% renewables, um, so wind, solar, and batteries, um, and then have, um, increasing liberalization and then optimizations like inspired in the, let's say, yeah, next 40 years. I, I hope that it will be faster, to be honest, um, but, uh, I, I

think it's not only about renewables and batteries, of course, that's, um, that's an extremely good combination, um. But depending on, on the current generation of stack, right, um, the, the initial goal is to be to decarbonize, right? Um, so phasing out the most dirty ones first. Um, I think there is still in some markets a role for, for natural gas, for example, as a, as a, as a solution before we go to a higher renewable penetration because what we've seen in some markets like Spain or

in Eco, etc. is that Um, grid infrastructure is maybe not, uh, fully ready yet for 100% renewable penetration. So we see first grid forming setups, etc. and we see a lot of co-location discussions going on, but it's more discussions than Really roll out. Um, so I think we also have to give the grids some time. To catch up, um, with the speed of, for example, PV etc. battery rollout. Um, but yes, in the end, it's, I think it should work. Uh, we, we're also missing long

duration storage. I'm, I'm a bit biased as Austrian, right? We have a lot of pumped hydro, so we don't have that big problem, um, but other countries don't have the opportunity to just build some pumped hydro. Um, and it takes quite some time, but, so I think the long duration storage is the, is the missing piece. Um, uh, to, to get to a, to a 100% renewable world, but there is no incentive in most markets yet. And it's not commercially viable, so a lot of projects

in the longer durations have been built out of security of supply, um, uh, mindset, I would say, so that's why a lot of them are state-owned or Um, uh, controlled by, by, by countries, right? So I, I think that That's missing something, uh, still to make it commercially attractive. And what's your best guess if you had to take a guess, what will be the, uh, long, the long term solution. So for the 1 to 2 day, uh, maybe volatility of renewables, I mean, every country is

a bit different, but let's take continental Europe in particular as an example, in Germany where, where we're already at 60% renewables really heading fast to 100%. Um, will we have, um, will we have the need for, for hydrogen? Uh, will we use just even more install even more battery because it will be getting so cheap that it will actually be economical to have a two week battery. Uh, back or more interoperability, there's actually the redefining energy greetings go to the other, uh, podcasts that are trying

to build a line between the Canada and, and Europe. So some, some, some interoperability between different countries, interconnectors. Yeah, I, I, I think there are some indeed some intercontinental plans, right, of, um, of cables, etc. but that's a huge infrastructure projects. Um, I don't know how fast. I'm not a, I'm not a battery expert in terms of chemistry, right? I don't know how far you can push the duration, right? And it would be the most cost efficient one. maybe we get surprised by other technologies like

flow batteries, right, that they're around for quite some time but never found their sweet spot. Um, There is a biodegradable materials inside, etc. so they would even be more sustainable and than, uh, than classical LFPs, um, etc. So maybe LFPs, um, uh, not LFPs, sorry, um, long duration storage, LLDES will be there, sweet, sweet spot. There is a lot of experiments with uh compressed air, etc. So I think the, as soon as the markets are there, uh, for the so-called Dunkelflatten, um, Uh, maybe TSOs will

procure long duration storage, etc. and then, uh, The commercial most competitive solution will just win, right? No matter if it's compressed air or flow or whatever it be, right? So, um, so I don't have a, a, a huge bet on, on a single technology. Um I'm just not a big fan of hydrogen, um, to produce it from wind, uh, lose efficiency, transport it, lose efficiency, uh, regasify lose efficiency and burn it to lose again efficiency. So, uh, forgive me who was a hydrogen fan, but I

I'm just boiling it down to this, uh, store electricity, um, via hydrogen. I'm. Not convinced about that case, especially as my background is natural gas and natural gas storage, um, so I think there may be applications for hydrogen, but I don't think that this would be, uh, no commercial mobility, at least it's very clear that it's already has lost, uh, the battle in the, in commercial, uh, transportation and yeah, in any other transportation immobility. And, and, uh, any, um, it's not, I'm not sure if you're

following that a lot as you're using also AI at uh inspired is, um, I, I find the topic is very, uh, interesting, the AI data centers and build out right now and uh if that could be. Become actually uh do you see it's a hurdle that we will not be able to deploy more, uh, data centers because of grid constraints or, or how, how do you look at that, um, topic also EVs if you, if there will be any capacity limitation. I think it's a bit

hyped, the topic, to be honest, from an energy industry perspective because the consumption is not as huge as, I mean, sometimes you get the feeling when you read the media that 90% of global electricity will be consumed by data centers, right? Uh, I, I think it's not that big, right? It's rather single digit percentages, um. And I think like big power plants like large battery storages, they will find the grid access, right? Um. Um, I'm rather interested from the side of flexibility because uh if you

have batch jobs, etc. these things could be quite flexible, uh, but I think it's very, very early, right, because, um, data centers that run now are rather designed to be available and not be flexible, um. But new data centers may be designed for, um, you know, if you have batch shops, you could even assign marginal costs of, uh, based on electricity prices, based on when you, when you run them, etc. um, or how long it takes, uh, to complete them so I think there will be

an exciting market. Um, there is one trend that speaks a bit against what I'm just saying is, uh, especially in the US the co-location of generation assets, right? So. What I just said only works if you integrate it with energy markets. If you kind of put, uh, put, uh, a huge data center somewhere in, in the middle of nowhere and then you put an SMR next to it. Mm Yeah, the grid support is, um, is not that, uh, not that big, right, right, a small module

reactor, nuclear reactor, yeah, and that's actually a topic I had, uh, that's a good segue is, do you see major hurdles in the energy system as it's right now in terms of flexibility, uh, versus, uh, other goals that are being favored. So examples in my view are Um, peak shaving where we're trying to optimize for the optimal base, base, base load and then that's, uh, that's, that's something that reduces grid fees but it doesn't really incentivize react, being able to react to other signals, uh, right

now. So that's a, that's a good example of the one you just gave as well. Um, so are there This type of example do you, are you optimistic that we will be fast enough to change incentives for, for many assets to be able to participate more and be more flexible? Yeah, so, I, I can just share my, my, uh, my experience, uh, working with grid operators, right? So there is security of supply, right? Bang, it's there, don't touch it, uh, it's, it's the highest good, right

Um. Uh, the grid has to be available and, uh, consumers have to get the electricity and etc. Then you have this topic of affordability, um, so the businesses are typically in most countries regulated, right? So they're not profit-oriented, uh, or, are not allowed to, um, so, so in most markets, uh, that I'm aware of, there is a cap. Um, on how much, uh, they're allowed to earn and you have a mechanism for distributing the costs, right? So what they do has direct impacts typically also end

consumers via different mechanisms in, in different countries. Um, so actually TSOs have has been, have always been incentivized to keep the systems running, right? Um, with a long-term horizon. Don't panic. Don't experiment. Just keep it running, right? And it it's great. We have, um, actually very, very working, yeah, in Europe. I think nobody, nobody can complain, right, um. In other countries, it has to be said because some listeners might not know, yeah, brownouts and blackouts and constant, uh, lack of light, yeah, it's, it's rather the

norm. Yeah, yeah. So, I think when you say flexibility. I think you have to put it into this box of grid planning, grid investments, etc. right? I, I see flexibility as an alternative of uh expanding or extending the grid, right? Very often you have this one node and then you have just 5 times a year in special situation with super high load, etc. uh, that the grid faces, uh, constraints or comes close to its, to its limits, right? And I think flexibility could be a very

charming way of instead of uh extending this node, uh, just put a bad video or whatsoever, right? There is some grid booster projects already, but typically regulation um holds a lot of grid operators back from doing this infrastructure projects because third-party access and non-discriminatory and all that, that stuff, right? Because it has never been designed for private investors. Uh, going somewhere and building smart, smart things, it was always under the control of utilities and TSOs. So I think flexibility is or should be part of, um

uh, the grid infrastructure plan, simple as that, right? And, um, there is different solutions, uh, sometimes even, uh, cheaper ones, and I'm actually very happy that currently, I mean, now finally we talk energy transition, right? We have. Uh, coming from the battery space, right, we have private investors coming and wanting to build battery storage, right? A lot of it. The second components, first time non-subsidized, right? No incumbent players involved, uh, a lot of people complain about, oh, PV subsidized, being subsidized, everything's subsidized, nothing works. Um

and now battery comes and it works without any subsidies, right? Um, So then financing was a topic, but out of the modern, the 1 gigawatt that we have uh under management, 900 whatever megawatts are, are uh merchant financed, right? So, so financing, um, works, it's getting more difficult with scale, of course, and the market needs to learn. And now the last step that is missing, um, Is aligning it with different grid levers, right? And now we're finally talking of what's the impact of a battery storage

on a certain location. Um, because you cannot just ignore where it sits, right? I think, to be honest, 2 years ago I would have said, Doesn't matter where you place your battery storage, um. But we also learned a lot um that it does matter, right? Um, if you're on a specific node, if there are several batteries on, on, on the same node, and what's missing is clear rules. How to integrate that you maybe realized that in media there is this grid supportive, grid friendly, grid whatever

all these fancy words where nobody knows exactly what it means, but it all boils down to, hey guys, I'm a grid operator, you have to align with me, right, because I know the grid and you want to, want to place an asset there and we have to communicate of what helps me and what makes my problem maybe even worse, right? If you have these 5 occasions in a year. Uh, with, with, uh, with high load and, and the battery does the wrong thing in these 5

occasions. Grid operators won't be happy, right, even if 99% of the time you do it right. There are studies that this is somehow happening exactly like this to the battery naturally. Uh, does the right thing out of price formation and how it works in, in most markets, and there may be some occasions where you want to limit its activity or align it with the interest of the grid, right? And so I think We're finally there to have all stakeholders on the table and say, if I

place the battery there, and I've talked to all the players, we can build a subsidy-free um thing that pushes higher renewables penetration and the grid operator is happy, right? So, um, I think if we're in a very Special time, right? Maybe we look back in 2 years and say, 2025, 2020206 were the years where we figured out how this whole decentralized stuff works, right? Um, so, so that's, that's actually one of the maybe the most uh interesting uh um conundrums that, that is that where society

is still not so aware, um, indeed that there's this discrepancy right between what the grid is able to, to do and, and then what the volatility of renewables in terms of production. is able to do. That's the two dimensions that one needs to think about and, and then the battery somehow play in between those two as well, uh, and, and the, the, the, the, the, that's why placing this battery at the good points is, uh, is key as you just said. And one thing, I mean

on the optimistic side that, that I'm, of, of course, I'm a possibilist as a person, so I think there's nothing that, uh, that is, if you want to do it, we will be able to do it, uh, but yeah, of course, there are plenty of hurdles in between. Uh, but it's possible from a physics, uh, standpoint, we can, we can, uh, design, uh, the grids incentives in such a way that the two will not, will, will work and sync the best way forward. I mean, that

it should be possible from a mathematical, just thinking from the physics, right? Um, now, in terms of practic practical matters, we're already seeing, uh, in countries where DSOs, where so many DSOs like in Germany, Switzerland. Uh, uh, that, that these DSO seem to have, um, difficulties as well to keep up, uh, with this change and, and especially adapting the pricing, uh, to real-time pricing, which I think would be a required, eventually, uh, required measure. And then having optimized like yourselves, which would be an interesting segue

as well, having uh the optimization not only at a TSO level and a SOT level but also at a DSO level, prioritizing, of course, the DSO as a hard constraint, probably. What's your view on, on, on this? Yeah, I think of what you described is um the result of a centralized system design, right? Because um where have 1 gigawatt core blocks uh been connected in the past? Where have uh 860 megawatts CCGTs been connected, right? Where have pump storages been connected for sure not in the

distribution grid, most of the, um, I mean at this size. Um, so the control, and that's now my interpretation, right, of, of the past, right? I've not been involved in writing the regulations, but, uh, um, the control was in the hand of the of the TSOs, right? Of, of high voltage, um, because this is where the, the large volumes, um, Um, are connected. And um so I think there is a missing link uh to, to the, to lower grid levels, um, and lower grid levels have

never been asked the DSOs to do um close to real-time monitoring of grid congestions of very accurate forecasting, etc. So when we engage with them, sometimes the data is not there or they work uh with a lag of X minutes, right, where it's basically too late. Um, then the call is executed by the TSO, maybe not considering the DSOs below, right, because one below 1 TSO there is a ton of DSOs, right? And it makes a difference if you're in the north of Germany or in

the south or in the east, or if you're close to a large power plant or not, or in next to a large consumer. So I think um we, we've missed a bit disintegration, we just stopped at the highest level and say, There is commercial signals, the TSOs know, the TSOs know everything, and they make the call, right? And now we realize with smaller assets on DSO level, maybe, This should have been set up differently, right? And that we need more data to make informed decisions and

not only on the tiers or whatever. So I think that's an energy market design issue that, that we have to solve, um. Otherwise, we will struggle and not find the best solution, right? The alternative is Um, we just allow, uh, decentralized assets on the specific points, right? Or they will be limited, um. Randomly on different points, uh, if we don't find an, an harmonious way of data exchange and, um, and rules, uh, also among all DSOs. So I think, but that's again the same topic, I

think now we're talking energy in transition, right, across our technical levels. Technically, I'm with you. No problem at all. It's uh Our data is there It's just a different way of working. Yeah, no, definitely, and then, uh, are you involved at all in policy shaping and making and are there any, still any policy changes that you see that are on the horizon that make you optimistic related to this topic? Um, so actually, I myself not, I mean, we, we deliver position papers on, on topics, um

so from a, from a. Optimizer perspective on topics that touch our business model or that touch our customers, or I'm sitting in the EPE Exchange Council, right, um. Uh, raising the hands of, um, the APEC, uh, the biggest power exchange in, in Europe has an, uh, a council built of members. So, um, uh, all members of EPPEC, uh, have to vote who's participating there. Um, and this council acts like a sounding board, right, um, or, uh, gives guidance on new products or has to vote, um

if new products will be introduced at defects or not, so it's the voice of, of all members, basically. So, and of course, um, our part there is to represent fully automated companies, right? Because we have different needs than the top 4 in Germany, right? With huge generation fleets, etc. Um, so it's a very diverse setup in that sense from, uh, players with strong renewable focus, players with strong conventional focus, um, we, with a ton of batteries, um, So, we, we try to provide input, uh, at

different forums, but we're not like actively involved in. Policy shaping more than others, right. It's not our business. We provide advice out of uh operational experience. Makes sense, yeah, I mean you talked about this, uh, you represent the fully automated uh. Um, players and within these players, I think one of the key messages you're, you're pushing, which you rightfully so is transparency and how to, and how to guarantee indeed that the promises you make to, to your customers are right. Maybe can you elaborate how, how

do you, I think you, you, you announced this auditing with a key PMG and, and other, can you maybe elaborate on that and, and how you think it will also evolve the market of to make the, the, the whole promise transparent. Yeah, so, uh, on the one hand side, you have to consider that, uh, battery storage optimization is a pretty new discipline, right? Um, we came up with cross-market optimization, uh, we presented it to the, to the public, I think 2022. Um, so we signed our

first battery storage 21, um, so, it's, it's pretty new, like 3.5 years, um, old. And at some point in time, Customers got confused by bankable forecasts being not aligned with, with daily optimization, uh, results, etc. And what, what you want to have, um, is some kind of investment security, right? That has a lot of aspects, but one component is, of course, do I have the same forecast for the next 10 to 15 years, right? To, to build my business case. Um, so we started actually very

early to share. Some of our data with, with players, right? But we found out that others without operational assets, right? Um, and it's not good or bad now, but, um, they showed up with super high stimulations and say, wow guys, we can do 300, I don't know what €1000 per megawatt per year, etc. And on the other hand side, you have also very inexperienced asset owners, right? Because they maybe build their first battery, or quite a lot of them are actually building their first or second

battery, right? And so, you, you've not, uh, a lot of experience on both sides of the table, right? And that resulted in higher and higher forecasts and, and we said, guys, it's kind of totally stupid. We know that it's not true because we have battery life. We have 1 hour, we have 2 hours, we have close to 4 hours, we have uh Netherlands, we have Belgium, we have Austria, we have Germany, right? So, so we have that operational experience, um, and so we said the only

way is To help maturing the market is making this stuff public, right? But um in a way that we don't expose single asset performance, right? It's data of our clients. Um, so, so to fulfill that quality criteria, we went with, uh, KPMG, an auditor, right? They have to stick to all the nitty gritty rules, trust me, that's not fun. It took us like 8 or 9 months, uh, to go through it. So we have to provide the data, they ask you questions and say, hey, is

this, uh, representing, uh, the market, or are you suggesting, uh, just, uh, how to avoid that you not only take the good performing assets and skip out, so we have to Show them our contracts and the whole asset base and um so audits, you know, top 4 audit uh guidelines uh behind it. And so we published it since January this year. We will publish our two-hour storage index. I mean, I showed it at Get inspired in, in Berlin. Uh, we've also shared the two-hour performance, uh

which we're currently certifying with KPMG. Um, can you just elaborate on this hourly performance because I'm not aware and listeners might also not be so. What do you mean with that? Yeah, um, so in the old world, uh, 3 years or 2 years ago and even longer, you had, um, battery storages designed to deliver frequency services, so mainly FCR. And to do that, you had to have 1 hour of storage duration. So 10 megawatts of power, 10 megawatt hours of capacity, right? How long does it

take to charge your battery from 0 to 100% is an hour. That's, uh, and the same for discharging, um, and that was uh. The most cost efficient dimension in capex wise, so investment wise to deliver frequency containment reserve. That's why in the past, All battery storages were 1 hour, even longer ago, half an hour was, was OK, so 10 megawatt, 5 megawatt hours. So it took you just half an hour to, to fully charge or discharge the battery. Um, We have, uh, we meanwhile, see, um

in all markets, no shorter duration than 2 hours, um, so, 10 megawatt, 20 megawatt hours. Uh, so it takes you 2 hours to fully charge or discharge the battery storage, um, and that, of course, comes with different revenue potential. So, 2-hour storage, um, it's, first of all, it's newer technology, uh, the old ones we had were NMC, the new ones were LFPs or lithium-ion phosphate. Um And have more cycles, etc. So these, these are fundamentally different configurations, let's call it like this. Um, so we agreed

with KPMG to have Around 1-hour storages as, as the old world and uh cluster them into one-hour storages, so 0.9 to 1.5, and from 1.5 hours duration to 3.5, we have the second cluster which represents the assets currently um in construction. And if we ever go to above 3.5 hours storage, we will add another cluster for longer durations, right? So in that sense, Otherwise you, uh, you cannot compare the performance, right? So if you build a 2 hour storage or that it is in construction, you

look at our 2 hour performance for comparable assets. If you have an old 1 hour, you look at the other. If you have longer duration, you look at the upper end of our, of our 2 hour index. So it's very important to Be fair and transparent in comparison, uh, in comparing, uh, assets. Um, so that was the idea, so that whoever has a battery storage, no matter if it's optimized by us, by somebody else, not optimized at all in construction, whatever, you go to our website

you check the numbers, you can download the, the KPMG report. There is written the, the minimum performance, so the worst performing asset, the best performing asset, and the volume weighted uh portfolio performance. So also that you don't have not one small exceptionally good performing one that, that tracks around your, your performance. So, but it's all described in, in the, in the documents and available for public download, um, and we already see that this gives a lot of confidence to asset owners, right? They look at the

old forecasts, the bankable forecasts, they look at the real performance. Uh, and say, OK, it has been slightly above, and they ask and say, oh, I understand why a forecast has to be slightly lower because there is stuff like volatility that cannot be forecasted accurately, so it really helps. Educating the market and it's basically, I would argue impossible, meanwhile in Germany to come up with a totally stupid back this number, right? Because a client will go on our website and say, I made 3000, I don't

know, in May annualized, and you say you can do 800. Now tell me how this works, right, um. But other markets are at this level, right? They've been in Poland recently in, in Warsaw. Same story again, no operational track record and it's about uh show, show me the high numbers, um, uh, yes, but you know there is, I think there is fear because there is no operational data, there is no asset in cross market. But um we recommend to look into other countries, right? If you

don't find your dream car or the price of your dream car in Austria, you look what the audio or whatever you like costs in Germany, right? Or what a similar car costs. So, I, I think you get the story, right? It's um operational data is just way more valuable than just simulation stuff. Yeah, yeah, I mean, to be fair, yeah, we're at the inception stages, as you said, like, do you know on top of your head, like what's the deployed battery storage capacity right now and

key markets or in Europe or in Germany or Um, I would have to lie. I haven't looked up the numbers for quite some weeks, but it's, um, I think it was like 2-ish gigawatts of, of grid scale in Germany, but I always mess it up with, uh, there is so much residential in, in Germany, right, right, um, you won't, you do not do any residential, you always do, um, more stationary and co-located, right? That's the. And then, um, and then, uh, with businesses we have, um

um, um, a VPP, um, with, with a partner where we will have end of the year some several 1000 small batteries, um, aggregated, but our core focus is, um, grid scale, um, so, so larger batteries, uh, single digit megawatts up to. Three digit Um, so that's the sweet spot at the moment, um, but we also have seen iceca battery storages life since 2 or 3 years. Um, so technology-wise, um, Um, not, not a problem. And will there be, uh, how much, like there was, I think

200 gigawatts in the pipeline in Germany alone. 500 0 500. All right, so how much do you think will actually be built and what what's, yeah, and how fast. Yeah, so, so we shared it very transparently, transparently, we have uh some really good uh developer customers, right, and um we assume out of What the really smart people make out of, out of the pipelines that it will be a single digit percentage, right? Rather a small one. Um, because you have to think if, um, if a

good player who knows the business and has done like, I don't know, 15 years of PB before, etc. knows the grid operators and how the game works with getting grid access as, uh, a medium single digit percentage, uh, then you have some cowboys out there, some, uh, Yeah, not, not Germans, right? So, uh, so fans outside of Germany who, who give it a shot, so I think we will land. I don't know, uh, at 10 gigawatts-ish, uh, out of the 500, it's just, um, I, I

I had a chat with, uh, uh, with this, hopefully soon to be customer, right? And, They have no, not a 15 years PV background, and the only way to do it for them is send grid applications, right? It's like, that's the, that's just the only way it's like uh sales, right? If you would talk traditional, I don't know, software sales, whatever, everybody knows, you have to fill your pipeline, you will have a hit rate at every stages, and, and then at the end, there is 30%-ish

uh, depending on where you start, uh, to, to, to track, right? And That's the same, um, I think grid operators have just not designed it for this, right, with the first come, first serve, etc. um. Because who built larger assets in the past? Incumbents and even a, two decades before, they have been one company, before they have been unbundled. So I think Again, the result of system design in my world. Nothing bad with it, uh, no bad intentions on both sides. But Not properly designed a

system uh to handle all those grid requests. Makes sense, yeah. And let's talk inspired. You have achieved already quite some milestones. I think the, the Series B was a bit back and then you can share some numbers so that the listeners also get a size where you are and what's your plan, where, where do you want to be in a, in a few years' time. Yeah, unfortunately our plane change changes, so our, our North Star not right, um, of being a global battery optimizer, but, um

You know, when we raised our Series B €25.5 million 1.5 years ago. Um, and the idea was like to have some countries in Europe. Get Europe break even basically and as a stronghold or as a foundation and then scale globally. And then suddenly we work with a mind blowing partner Optimus Energy in Greece on 270 megawatts. We work with an extremely good partner in in Spain, Portugal, Nexus Energy. We work with Ecoortes, super matching DNA in Poland, etc. so. Europe goes crazy in terms of battery

storage, right? And so we always move back to even countries, right? Uh, we, we get requests from Romania from, you cannot imagine, um, I've spent quite some time in Bucharest, um, in, in, in my past, um, but no, yeah, yeah, yeah, cheat, so that, so, so, so the thing is, um. You have these maturing markets, right, and where the UK was actually by far first in uh in Europe, right? On the continent you have it like stacked now, right, based on market maturities and whenever we

say OK, in 1. years we, we look, or we start looking now more into the US for 1 in 1.5 years. It's like, here's another country in Europe, here's another country, here's another country, right? And, um, so Europe keeps us quite busy. So Greece, for example, was not on our roadmap, um, ideas and we have, I mean, the biggest asset there is 150 megawatts, 300 megawatt hours, so, uh, quite, quite sizable. Um, so Europe keeps us busy, the goal is global, right? We do the first

step, um, um, with the Japanese partner, uh, one of our, of our shareholders which will be announced soon. Um, so if we have access to the Japanese power exchange, uh, we're building the first forecasts, etc. So Japan will be our first. Uh, global markets, um, Um, but yes, for the US, um, yeah, we have to first, uh, take care about our, our home continent, let's call it like this, uh, before we do a bigger step. Makes sense. And, and how do you ensure that scaling also

geographically is quite far away? You maintain the product quality and the customer support, uh, required. Um, so actually, That was from the beginning, uh, so I would say we're finally where we wanted to be, right? 5.5 years ago when founding the company, so as, as all of us have a tech software background, um, so the idea was to scale with technology instead of people, right? And what we've achieved, uh, meanwhile, um, I had a chat some days ago with Wolfgang, um, a co-founder and CTO. Um

and we improved some bidding for the optimization and suddenly the bidding improvement has impact in Germany, in Austria, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in France, and, um, so we achieve also this leverage right platform-wise. So it's um strategically one thing is uh risk diversification, revenue diversification, right, um, uh, entering new countries, but the other is really leveraging. That markets, especially on the continent, skip GB please for now, but on the continent are harmonized, right? Um, why do you skip GB or like just because, uh, they

never wanted to be, uh, harmonized with the rest of Europe, right? So the market works fundamentally different, um, you have, uh, not a single shared order book, so you have EE and not pools with different liquidity, um, you have, uh, auctions organized by two nemos, so the two power exchanges. You have different ancillary services, um, so what the TSOs, uh, uh, requests from you different from, from the continent, some similar, some not at all. So, uh, connected by interconnectors, explicit capacity auctions instead of implicit what

we have with SSTEC and SIDC on the continent. So they just did, did not participate in more than a decade of har harmonization, right? So. That's um in terms of scaling and geographic expansion, they are different and I think that's also the reason why you rarely see UK players on the continent and they rather say look at Australia and the US um but I mean some do like uh like octopus uh or or kraken, right, but it's a bigger jump than you. Would, would, uh, assume

uh, in the, in the first step. So, but other than that we scale with technology and that's, uh, you know, some markets are easier and some are more complex, but typically it takes us some months to build. Something rock solid for a new country, which is mind blowing and that was the plan. Yeah, congrats and switching gears to fleets and smart charging, this the podcast is also about that topic. I'd be curious and, and, and also I want to, uh, say thank you as well for

your help so far as advisor of RiDERgy and and been super helpful. Um, what's your view on, on, on fleets, electrification, smart charging, especially how it fits with uh inspired and is it, uh, yeah, if you have any thoughts related to the potential that is there, uh, for, for also bi-directional charging and, and these type of topics. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a, a passionate EV driver since, uh, nearly 10 years. Um, so actually it inspired a lot of people don't know that we had

um a first smart charging solution within an Austrian utility like 4 years ago or so, I think it was 21 in life operations, so back then. Players were not even sure if uh smart charging and load management is the same or not. So, but what, uh, most players meant with load management was like, uh, cut, cut off the peaks, right, peak shaving, and what we meant with, uh, yeah, what we meant with, uh, smart charging was, uh, power price optimized charging of a vehicle, um, so

that didn't scale back then, um. I think, uh, not enough volatility, not enough awareness, no spot price index tariffs, um, not enough charging infrastructure to be, to be honest, right? There were not too many, uh, CPOs for charge point operators, uh, back then, etc. So I think we've been a bit early and Don't get me wrong now, but algorithmically piece of cake compared to a battery, right, smart charging, um, so that will change with vehicle to grid, of course, etc. but purely charging is, I mean

you, you get it basically for free now, um, with your, with your spots priced in, uh, tariff. Um, so that's the background, so, uh, you can, uh, assume that I'm a firm believer in electric vehicles, right? Um, So I think the biggest problem in scaling so far or why we are not further progressed is. That the mobility industry underestimated the energy industry, right, of who owns the metering point, um, what's the say of the supplier of that metering point, how does it work with balancing, how

do you influence the forecast? So I think we've seen a lot of players who have thought that, yeah, just connect somewhere and then it's done. Right, and then it's, then it's like, oh, if you have like 10 charge points, sorry guys, then, uh, my supply thing is different, and then, oh, it's 1 m, that doesn't work to have 2 different tariffs on the same meat and all that stuff, right? What I've heard over the last, uh, heard and learned over the last years. So I think

the biggest potential from, um, from my point of view at the moment is, um, commercial or corporate fleets or whatever, right, where you have uh control over, over the vehicles, um, because if you have residential players, maybe they're not so happy if you mess around with their €80,000 battery, right? Um, but if it's company cars or transporters or whatever or electric buses, um. Uh, they're typically owned, operated, or leased or whatever by, uh, by the company. So I think you also get to, uh, some volume

that's interested, interesting. So I think that should be a thing. It's also easier to forecast the fleet than single, single assets, right? And, uh, out of portfolio thing and I think you can get realistically to vehicle to grit at some point in time because who on earth at home would buy a 2.5 €3000 charger, right, for vehicle to greet. Um, so, I think residential-wise, we're not there yet, but fleet-wise, I think. There are a lot of players with, with large fleets already, um, and from inspired

point of view, as soon as a vehicle to greet, it's getting interesting because we don't care it's if, if it's 64 containers standing still at the site. Or if it's 200 cars that can be connected and disconnected, right, um, optimization wise, it's very similar, not the same, but similar. And will there be a, a conflict in your view once we get to bidirectional in terms of number of batteries uh that will be deployed, there will be a competition between stationary batteries and, and the mobile batteries

Uh, will there be like a cannibalization effect? Um, for sure on the energy side, right? But, um, to be honest, I, I cannot judge it, um, if the cars are connected at the right point in time, right? Uh. If they will all be connected uh during noon, where it makes sense energy wise, then you have very often longer durations, right? Um. So it also depends on how fast the chargers are and what the cars are capable of uh charging, discharging, and, uh, what, what, uh what

the OAMs accept, accept, right? Just if you have 400 kilowatts. Uh, DC charger, they, I don't know if they would be happy if you stuck, uh, the, the battery empty in some minutes, um, of an electric vehicle and then charge it again, uh, in, in another 10 minutes. So I think a lot of it depends on really the available flexibility in terms of power and, and, and megawatt hours or gigawatt hours or whatever. But yes, they should play the same game, um, and will face the

same topics, right, at some point in time, uh, a DSO will come up and say, guys, sorry on this note. You will not charge 3 megawatts and you will not discharge 3 megawatts at this point in time, right? Um, so I think should be fully integrated and hopefully profit from, uh, learnings from the grid scale, um, from the grid scale rollout, so. I have no doubts that this will work, it's just a matter of time. Sounds good. Yeah, on this, on this hopeful note, um, I

I'd like to ask you if you have some final uh messages as well, uh, for the listeners and also how people can engage with you best. With me as a person or with inspired? Both engaging with us is easy, right? You've, uh, as soon as you're involved in the battery space, you will, uh, earlier, um, or later cross or sooner or later cross our, um, Uh, across us as some, uh, events, etc. you can always drop us a line. Um, the fastest way to reach me

is WhatsApp, right? That's how my wife reaches me, so I have to check if, if I get the, if I get the message, right? Uh, LinkedIn, LinkedIn is, uh, is tricky, right? I get a ton of spam, and I just, uh, realized that I didn't answer things from 3 months ago, which was a, or even longer, which was a bit embarrassing, uh, for me, um, but I think you will, uh, figure out how to, to, to reach out to, to me or my colleagues. Um Or

you reach out to Claudio and he drops me a WhatsApp.

Yeah, happy to, uh, to make an introduction. It makes sense.

Yeah, and do you, do you have uh an, an, I don't know, an inspiring last message as well uh to share? Um, I can just say if, if you're not active yet in the energy industry. This is the most exciting time. I think since decades, um. And it's a unique opportunity no matter in what role, right? If you're talking about uh electric mobility, if you talk about battery storage supply, whatever it is, right, I think it's, this is really the time where we have a paradigm

shift in energy, right? Uh, so I think, um, if you have a chance to get involved with, with energy. The, the time is now and um I hope we will all be very proud in a decade or two to tell. How much work we put into the new energy system, um, 20 years ago, so, um. So that's why I love my job, right? Um, energy gets never boring and now it's extremely exciting, um, unbelievable. Definitely agree with you. Thank you, Jung, for your time and your

energy. Keep it up. And have a good evening. Thanks, you too. So This was Jurgen from Inspired. This conversation showed that batteries are not just pieces of hardware, they are market participants. The crucial advantage comes from fast automation that moves from measurement to forecast, from forecast to bid, and from bid to dispatch. Performance can be judged with simple, concrete metrics, the capture rate compared to day ahead prices, the time it takes to place a trade, and the cost of forecast errors. Value is never the same

everywhere. It follows local congestion, imbalanced volatility, and country-specific rules. Merchant battery projects can work when a proper risk book is in place, including cap and floor structures, mixed revenue streams, and early pre-qualification for ancillary services. Success in the fields. Depends on integration details, solid EMS contracts, defined fallback states, good test plans, and reliable telemetry. Clean data and clear audit trails build trust with lenders and with regulators. Co-locating storage with wind or solar can add options, but grid limits and curtailment can remove those gains just as

quickly. A practical next step is to automate end to end in a single market zone. And scale only after the same KPIs hold up outside of backtests. What comes next is more flexibility at the distribution level, faster settlement cycles, and tighter performance guarantees. It was a very complex episode and shows the level of sophistication that Jurgen and Inspired bring to the market and to the table. I'm very excited to have him advising us at Rgy and keeping on collaborating and hopefully scale as well together um

solutions like inspire to fleets. And thanks for listening to Smart Charge and see you in the next episode. Stay charged.

Ep. 30: Jürgen Mayerhofer, CEO & Co-Founder of Enspired – Battery Optimization, AI and the Software-Defined Energy World

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