Ep. 19: Felix Hamer, AKA “Electric Felix” on Incentives, Smart Charging Pilots and EV Adoption Across The World

0:11 Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

0:39 Hello and welcome to the Smart Charge podcast. I'm your host Claudio, and we're plugging in with Felix Hamer, better known as Electric Felix. Felix is one of Europe's most recognizable EV storytellers, a Dutch-based creator who's logged countless real-world kilometers across the continent and even in China, stress-testing charging networks from Ionity to mom-and-pop AC posts, and turning those road trips into brutally honest breakdowns, deep-dive newsletters, and data-driven social media threads. What sets Felix apart isn't just the range tests or

1:18 charger reviews - it's the way he translates kilowatts, tariffs, and route planners into human decisions. Will this charger work at 2 a.m.? Do I trust that RFID card? How does a family road trip feel when the SOC hits 7% and the next DC charger is 40 kilometers away? In this episode we'll unpack some of these aspects and much more: geographical differences and what makes some countries' EV adoption better than others, and especially his experience in China, Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark. And also smart charging, his experiences

1:51 with that, pilots, his perfect vision of how it should be, and many more things. Let's dive in. Hello Felix, thanks for joining me today. How was your trip to Berlin? Very smooth, actually, thank you for inviting me. Yeah, we traveled yesterday from Amsterdam to here in a very casual, tiny-battery Tesla, and yeah, it's just a matter of - I focus on affordable chargers, which unfortunately doesn't leave that many options, but yeah, driving electric to

2:28 Berlin for years has been fairly easy, but the pricing is a different point. Alright, yeah, but at least you made it. That's one thing, and we'll definitely talk about all the challenges and difficulties related to EV charging and to your personal setup. Before we dive into that, to help listeners understand a little bit who is talking, can you introduce yourself? What's your background? How did you get to what you're doing today? Yeah, thank you. I'm Felix Hamer, and

3:00 some people might know me as Electric Felix, because it was about 8 years ago that I tried an electric motorbike for the first time. Even though I'm an IT guy in Amsterdam, I like to try new things, and this motorbike really surprised me. It showed me fast charging as a sort of ultimate opportunity to electrify anything. I suddenly realized: if this motorbike can be electric - I had a petrol motorbike at the time - then I guess anything

3:34 could be. These fast chargers sort of create any possibility. You can have a slow charger and it's fine, but the fast charger creates this opportunity that you can just keep going. And that is - I think, because I'm a road tripper by heart - I've been traveling around Europe for many years and I just used to do that with diesel cars. I never owned a car because I live in Amsterdam, and the diesel rental was simply

4:04 always the best deal to go far from home. And this is what I noticed with the fast charging I tried with the motorbike: if you looked for the right deal, especially 7 years ago, it was super easy to charge cheaply in many places, even though it was less fast than today. That created the opportunity for me to travel a lot at a very affordable level, on an electric motorbike. That's the one. The motorbike also unlocked me to look for

4:35 car rentals as well. I took a BMW i3 to Paris, for example, and it was actually a full disaster, but my best friend was in the car and he still went EV after that experience, because on the way back, as soon as we entered the Netherlands again, we were in this fast-charging heaven where they had a nationwide network that made everything easy. He immediately realized that he needed to get rid of his petrol car, because he was making a lot of kilometers in

5:07 the Netherlands and by going EV he could do that at half the price. So yeah, many things happened in the past decade. I created a blog to simply share my travel experiences and it all escalated a bit, so by now, especially on LinkedIn, I have thousands of followers, and I just try to keep people updated on what is going on in the charging scene. I was mainly also surprised by the differences - this first trip to France really showed that even

5:35 going 500 kilometers from home, Paris isn't far from Amsterdam, but the electric landscape changed several times over in that tiny trip. Even today you can still see that traveling to Italy is completely different from traveling to Spain. While I see that as fun because I can write about it, I also think that for mass adoption, things need to be easy and affordable, and not like this puzzle where you need to find the right deal to go left or right like

6:09 this. Right. Thanks for that - that already gives us quite some points to touch upon. First, what got you so excited about electric motorbikes, coming from your experience with the diesel? What were the core elements, if you remember? Yeah, the motorbike surprised me so much because I had just had my license for, I think, about a year, and I had just had my petrol motorbike for that time. And the experience of this electric motorbike - you immediately get

6:41 This feeling of the power that just keeps pushing, and that you're on this machine that has no gear shift, that can just go - there's a certain fluidity to it that is just, you don't know it from the fossil age because it isn't. It is something completely new. And yeah, I think just the combination of that really puts tech into the mobility space. I always, I even like biking around. I still love to bike around because

7:18 it gives me so much freedom, and an e-bike just sort of adds to this freedom because you can simply go further in the same time. And the e-bike really shows you, in a country like the Netherlands, that massive amounts of people take e-bikes to work. And yeah, I think that half of them would never take the bike to work because then you get all sweaty and you would never go very far every day. Like, if you can afford it, you would just upgrade.

7:47 And yeah, I think that here is really this sort of secret sauce where there's this opportunity to do things that we didn't do before, because EVs create an opportunity that wasn't there before. Also the combination of, like, an electric motorbike isn't that silent, so people think that EVs are sort of dull because there's no engine roar. But the bike I tried is this bike from Italy, and actually the company is in a lot of trouble, but back then they were really

8:22 pushing the boundaries. And the thing is that, yeah, when you go full speed, it actually makes a lot of sound. Clearly it's like this high-pitched electric sound - it's very different, but yeah, it really pushes you to go crazy. And the thing is also that I had friends on the back in Amsterdam, and they still talk about those rides, because it is just so unbelievable that this torque comes from nowhere. And

8:50 yeah, if you then think about what you can do with that bike, and how easy it is to find affordable charging so that you can actually rinse and repeat this every day at easily half the price that you could ever think of doing such things with petrol - and at the same time it also shows you that if you have a big indoor space you can also ride it there because the fumes aren't there. There's just all these things that happen,

9:21 but yeah, it was the fast charging that that motorbike could do that made it so special for me. It could DC charge - it needed a 50 kW charger, but the thing is that it could DC charge at 20 kW or something, so that's not absolute maximum. But the thing is that the battery was 11 kWh, so just very small. By now they doubled it to 20 kWh, and that is it. Like, how much range - it had a

9:50 realistic range of a bit over 100 kilometers if you used it normally. And then yeah, you could hypermile it to get a bit more, and I drove it in summer so you could eke a bit more out. But yeah, it was also this combination with the infrastructure that was just so exciting. I took the motorbike to Switzerland, and I found out that the chargers I would need in the north of France were only at the supermarkets that had the

10:24 chargers only open while the shop was open, because it was a service for customers and you couldn't pay for it - it was free, which was amazing. But at the same time it meant that I couldn't ride the actual trip on a Sunday because the shops would close and the chargers would shut down, and in that area of France there was simply no alternative. So yeah, that really shows you that, to me, this element of the plugs unlocking everything is

10:54 sort of the biggest secret for me. And yeah, that is also where I think that in Europe we're doing pretty well in expanding the infrastructure, but the thing is that if the plugs aren't where they need to be - which is in front of people's faces and houses - yeah, things will just go too slow. And could you use the same plugs with motorbikes as you can with cars? Yes, interestingly enough. Everything revolves around the CCS plug in Europe. Luckily, the EU decided on

11:27 that very early on, so you can actually use the same infrastructure. And this is, I think, also one of these key elements why, for example, the EU is doing better than the US, because in the US even today there's just this mess of plugs. And as soon as you go fast charging compared to slow charging, you need different cables, different converters. It really depends on your vehicle and your house, and a lot of things, what you need. And in Europe it's fairly simple,

11:59 where we have an AC standard that is just the same for everyone, and the DC standard that, apart from the old Nissan story, is simply CCS - so that's completely unified. And so I now have an understanding of how you got into e-mobility as a topic and what led you then to start sharing it in a blog. Yeah, so what I found was so strange about this motorbike is that I couldn't believe what it could do,

12:27 but I also didn't understand why I didn't know about it. Because the thing is, I won a ride on the motorbike and then I rented it to try it out several times, and what surprised me the most was simply that I didn't know that it existed. And I think this is, to a point, even sort of true today - that many people, if you were to go around Europe and ask people in the

12:56 streets of a random European city and just interview them and ask them if they ever tried an EV, I expect most people to say no. And I expect most people to not know many things about EVs. Even today I almost faint when I see an electric motorbike in Amsterdam, because of how little I see them. And this is 8 years after me trying the motorbike, and after trying it for one afternoon I realized any Dutchman that works

13:31 in the Netherlands and rides to work, maybe with a motorbike, maybe with a car, or whatever. They can take that motorbike to work, no problem, because of the infrastructure that we already had. And today, even crazier, but most people will not even know it's out there. So that triggered me to start my blog first, even just an Instagram page, and just share my charging experience, my road trips, to simply show people: if you were to Google for something electric, then maybe you'll find

14:05 the story. And it's also why I wrote in English, because I ran into a lot of people. Imagine taking that motorbike to France - French people love motorbikes. So many people came up to me when I was charging, walking around the thing, and everybody would ask me about it. Every French person talking with me about the motorbike always thought it was a hybrid, because they could not believe it would not be. And I think that is even true today, that most people

14:35 will not believe you when you show them that this stuff is out there. Which is just one of the reasons for me to keep going and just writing about it as if it's normal, because I think it should be, but we're not there yet, I guess. Right, and you hinted upon the differences in different countries, and especially one thing that captured my curiosity most was the difference between Spain and Italy, which I'm not so familiar with. Can you elaborate a bit on

15:04 those geographical aspects and the differences in challenges? Yeah, so what is just so odd to me in Europe is this difference - I guess it has to do with, you know, it even has to do with the road network. Italy has more toll roads than Spain, I think. And they do things very differently with who owns the roads and the places where you could go for fuel and stuff. But yeah, I think the energy markets of Europe are

15:35 just a complete - everybody does their own thing, and even though Europe is sort of well connected, that doesn't mean we have one kilowatt-hour price for Europe at all. And you really see this when, let's say, you live in Rome and you do go out of the city a lot and you want to do that with an EV. Charging in Rome is sort of easily double the price of charging in Madrid. And when I say

16:10 this out loud, I just feel like - how can this be? On the one hand, I totally understand that they aren't close to each other, but they're both sunny big cities in places where it would be so easy to put solar everywhere. They both have enough space to build big stations. Clearly, yes, Spain has more area maybe with fewer people, so maybe even easier to install solar. But the

16:43 thing is that charging right now in Spain can fairly easily be done at half the price compared to Italy. What are we talking about? Yeah, we're really talking about charging in Italy where it's completely normal to find any type of charger at 80 cents per kilowatt-hour, and in Spain it's fairly easy to find chargers at 40 cents. In my opinion, clearly, as soon as you can charge at home things change, but there you can already

17:10 see a big difference again in that a lot of people in Italy cannot charge at home because the home connection actually doesn't allow it. And this is again the stuff - even if we look at the Netherlands, the Netherlands has certain laws for the electricity market that slow down our AC chargers. We limit our AC chargers to less than 19 kilowatts because that creates a much cheaper connection to the grid. But that means that as soon as

17:44 you're in Amsterdam and you plug into a charger that looks like an 11 kilowatt charger - which is already slow, but for most vehicles this is simply the onboard charger that they have, so it doesn't matter - as soon as two cars plug in there, you don't even get 11 kilowatts, and that's already little. This has to do with, in my opinion, a Dutch law that was never - you know, it was written when charging didn't exist, and I just don't understand why we

18:12 don't upgrade these things, why we don't take this seriously, because we needed a million public chargers in the Netherlands yesterday that run at 11 kilowatts whenever people need it, and we're just not doing this. Even though we have the most amazing AC network in Europe - maybe in the world, but let's just keep it to Europe - we're still doing a lot of things wrong, in my opinion, that we could do better. And just to understand: what's the typical situation if two charge

18:43 points are occupied? What would you get? Yeah, so then both would get 8.5 kilowatts, and of course you could say it's close enough to 11 - but it isn't. People drive German EVs with 100 kilowatt-hour batteries today. You can get Chinese EVs with even bigger batteries than that. And it's also depending on your onboard charger. The Netherlands had a lot of jokes in the past because we were so early with EV uptake, because we had very good tax regulation when it comes

19:18 to EVs. So we had some EVs like the Jaguar, which I tried a lot because it was an affordable rental car at the time. This Jaguar had a single-phase onboard charger, which means if you plug it in in Amsterdam to a three-phase public charger, you actually get less than 4 kilowatts. So it means that you can be there all day and simply not fill the thing, and that's why it made for a lot of fun on my road trips when I took the

19:47 Jaguar to Germany. Then I could finally charge at 11 kW, and I was like, yeah, AC charging is amazing. But yeah, it's just one of these old stories that, if you buy them secondhand today - they're pretty popular secondhand cars - then in the Netherlands on the public network, it absolutely sucks to charge a car like that. And that has to do with the onboard charger as well, but it's also this: yeah, we even slow it down by not offering, in Germany,

20:19 because you can charge 22 kW at an AC charger, that creates this opportunity for the Jaguar to go to 11, which in the Netherlands it will just never get. So there are so many points here to discuss, in the Netherlands still maybe. We can take it from there. What are things that you think in the Netherlands are particularly good - and you can boast even though we all know you're a Dutchman - and then let's say all the things that

20:50 could be improved in the Netherlands. Because I think out of all the countries - and you have been in quite some countries, maybe you can elaborate and feel free to go into some level of detail on all the countries where you have experienced EV charging - and then, even if we know you're biased, you can say which is the number one in your ranking in terms of EV heaven. Yeah, so one of these

21:14 things in the Netherlands is that we had AC charging for a long time. So even if you go back 5 years, Amsterdam already had thousands of public plugs, and by now I think we've crossed the 8,000 mark, but 5 years ago we already had 4,000 if I'm not mistaken. We're already halfway. And that, for example - the AC charging network of Amsterdam was probably bigger 5 years ago than Berlin's AC charging network today. And then

21:49 yeah, that's not even regarding pricing. And that's pretty wild, because Amsterdam is much smaller than Berlin, and we have way fewer cars, so it is absolutely not a car-focused city at all. And here, when I walk the streets, just the amount of cars that I see is mind-blowing to me - which I also understand, because it's so much bigger and of course people work outside of the city, etc. But yeah, the thing is, in

22:18 the Netherlands, if we look at AC charging, you can see that we come from the situation where we started very early in rolling out these plugs and we made it very easy for people to get a public charger nearby their house, or at least nearby where they needed the charger. So that is something people were asking for - or the government would proactively... No, you could - as soon as you had an EV, so that was the only

22:50 sort of condition - and what in my opinion was sort of the wrong part about it was that while you were waiting for your EV you could not get the plug. So there would be a stage where you wouldn't have it. But anyway, as soon as you had an EV, you could just use the government website to say that you were interested, and they would actually - in a city like Amsterdam, they would actually

23:16 measure from a certain distance of your house whether the plugs that were there, when you wanted to use them, would be available on the average day that you wanted to. And then they would install a new one nearby if it was proven that that plug would not be available when you needed it most. Nowadays this has changed, and places like Amsterdam but also many other locations have just started rolling out plugs based on predicting where the

23:53 growth will be, because they can just see that the fleet keeps getting bigger and chargers keep getting used more. Is distance - a minimum or maximum - a criterion as well, that you cannot have to walk too far? Exactly. So yeah, I think in Amsterdam, if I'm not mistaken, it was like 300 m, something like that. Last week I actually had an interview right here in your spot with the head of the German - the Nationale Leitstelle für Elektromobilität, yes - Johannes Palka. And then

24:26 we were discussing the distance that should be realistic in terms of any citizen in Germany, and I think it was quite a bit more. So 300 m sounds quite generous and quite cool. Yeah, and this is just where you can see that the Netherlands - if we were to take an EV from Berlin to somewhere in the Netherlands, then probably if you end up in anything that looks like a village or bigger, the chances are very high that

24:58 there is public infrastructure nearby where you stay or where you need to go for work or whatever. Like, even if you go to a Dutch beach, there's probably just an AC charger nearby where you're parking. And then, clearly, on a summer day they might be in use because peak demand is still a bit of an issue. But the thing is, in the Netherlands, I would dare to say that it's just fairly easy to plug in when you park, because also if you

25:29 use parking garages a lot - and in the Netherlands it's becoming, I think, close to impossible to find a parking garage where you could not charge at the same time. I find myself, if I'm driving around the Netherlands, which I don't do that often but I do do it, not plugging in at many parking garages because I don't like the price of the chargers they install, because many chargers in parking garages have some deals that in my opinion just don't

25:59 make any sense for an AC charger. But this is where it becomes interesting to me. First, since I grew up in Amsterdam and I saw a lot of shared cars already over 10 years ago that I also used a lot, and they could electrify because the charging network was there. So Amsterdam was trying to get these companies to invest in going EV early, like from day one. The Smart cars from a network called Car2Go at the

26:31 time were all EVs, and if I would go to Hamburg at that time, the same car would have a petrol engine because they didn't have enough chargers to charge them. And in Amsterdam, the whole fleet was EV from 2013 because they could charge at the public network. This was one of the first times that I went EV in my personal life, because actually if you plugged them in when they had a low state of charge, you got bonus minutes, and it created this

27:01 opportunity for me to try EVs in Amsterdam for many years, paying very little money, and even sort of helping the network. Nowadays this is not necessary anymore, because people will plug them in anyway and there are so many plugs around. In the old days you still needed to look for a plug, and now in Amsterdam if you're walking down the average street you will just see a plug. But here is one of these things where I still

27:32 feel that we have a network that is sort of old. In the Netherlands, because we started so early, it's based on the RFID badge - the charging card that people are probably aware of if they drive EV or if they've tried it. It was true that every Dutch charging card worked at every Dutch charger. For a long time that was simply the world as it was. And nowadays you can see that we've come to a place where

28:07 it's just not that straightforward. First of all, it will probably work, but the price might be off. And nowadays, because these networks have grown older, in places like Rotterdam or Amsterdam there might have been three tenders by now that put in public chargers, and they might all have their own tariff deals. So it's completely normal if we were to visit places like Rotterdam and Amsterdam today that we could walk around a street where we could literally see left and right in the

28:38 street public chargers that look the same, but they would have a different price. And sometimes it would be easy to see because the price would be on the machine, or maybe you use an app that shows it well, but yeah, the average app will not show it well. You might not be warned if it's not what you expect. If you live there and you use the charger every week, you might not notice that the price actually changes. So there are

29:09 still so many things that in my opinion we just have to improve, and this is what is so cool about coming to Berlin today. For example, in the old days I was driving here seven years ago and the chances of me finding a charger late at night were practically zero. And now if I drive to a random Berlin neighborhood, there will be a charger there, but the pricing will vary wildly. There are, I

29:40 feel, at least five operators now in the city that run a decent amount of AC chargers, and it's funny because the chargers also look very different and they behave differently. Some come with their own cable, which I think is super cool - these tethered AC chargers are amazing to me. But yeah, they're completely not the norm, so my dad would definitely get out of the car, take his cable, and then run into this cable on the street that he wouldn't expect. So

30:07 it's also funny. But anyway, this information problem - where it's just not that easy to understand where to go, where to find the best price, or where it's easy to stay longer - yeah, we could just go on and on. It is wild to me that I really started my blog because of the charging jungle that I found in Europe, and I always expected it to sort of become less, but I

30:41 sort of feel like it's become more - like today we have more jungle than five years ago, which is not exactly what I hoped for. More jungle - that's a good statement. One thing I would be curious about: maybe we can do it rapid-fire style, because I'm pretty sure you're unique in that sense in the world. To understand which countries you have so far experienced in terms of EV charging -

31:08 let's go through EU countries. Have you been to all of them, or batch-wise - Western Europe, Eastern Europe? Yeah, more Western Europe, because I've traveled to places like Italy and Spain and Sweden and Norway and the UK. But far east I still have to go, so east of Poland, east of Romania - yeah, it's still one of my goals to drive to Istanbul, because then you really - yeah, as soon as you sort of

31:44 leave Hungary, most Western European charging apps just get completely lost, and it's still a bit exciting to find these chargers that you don't know. You might find way more Chinese chargers and stuff like this. And then the UK - I haven't been in years, but I did go in the beginning several times. By now they're doing much better in the sense that there are really around ten networks out there that are really pushing, but

32:15 At the same time you notice that pricing is a huge thing in the UK, where people with home charging can easily charge overnight for next to nothing, and public charging can be sort of €1 per kilowatt hour, easy to find. And these things are just wild to me - how can these things just escalate so madly? €1 per kilowatt hour, I don't think, is very sensible. Then I know you have been in China, and

32:46 we'll have a deep dive on China, but other countries in Asia you've been to? I have been to other countries in Asia but not in my EV time, so - definitely, because places like Indonesia and Thailand are developing very fast - I have been to Thailand but way before EVs. And the Americas I never visited in EV time, so the last time was 2018 and I still did a petrol road trip with a friend. And I assume nothing in

33:17 Africa either. No, exactly. So we had a recent episode, by the way, about Ethiopia, which you might be aware is the first country that has banned petrol cars from being sold in the country. That's why we had a deep dive with somebody who really understood it, and it was interesting. So I encourage you - if you want to share your experience there, I would be very curious to see your experience, and

33:45 so let's have a little bit of a - I think we had a bit of a deep dive on the Netherlands already, but one thing that I'm particularly interested in - two aspects actually of the Dutch - is that I would love to have your opinion on this. The grids are known to be very congested, and that's one of the reasons I think there are such strict limitations on the power levels that can be - how do you

34:11 see all this? Grid congestion is a fascinating phenomenon. I think it kind of has to do with Dutch pride in efficiency, and that has this extreme effect today: we had an efficient power network for what we did, and because of our gas bubble in Groningen everybody thinks that heating with gas is amazing and cheap - and nowadays it isn't - so finally people are installing heat pumps. Luckily

34:53 we have a lot of smart metering at home, but the thing is that just a lot of things in the Netherlands weren't electric. Now of course many companies and people will want to go electric for all kinds of reasons, and then suddenly we pretend to find out yesterday that the network isn't capable of growing overnight by whatever margin we need. And this actually gets us into serious trouble, because let's say you run a logistics company and

35:29 you have 50 trucks and you just want to electrify as soon as possible - you would need a serious charging plaza to do 50 trucks overnight, or whatever way you want to do it, depending on how you run your business. But if you would find this out today and go to the energy company and request a couple of megawatts to do this, well, they would just laugh in your face and

35:57 literally tell you they can deliver in 2032 - and that's if you're lucky. So we're in a place where I wonder how fast we'll get out of it, because clearly a lot of expansion is planned and it will come, etc. But right now it really puts us in a certain gridlock, and in a city like Utrecht it already has the effect that they

36:34 throttle charging in Utrecht. I think if you plug in at 7 at night you get very little or nothing, because the neighbourhood just has so much power demand from people getting home from work. And this is also where the public charging network is a bit stupid as it is today, because all of these people drive their cars to work, they all come home at roughly the same time, they all plug into the public charger at the same time, and then

37:06 at home they also plug everything in, start cooking, etc. And there's absolutely no need - 90% of the cars that get plugged in at 6 p.m. have absolutely zero power need at that moment when they plug in. This is of course where I think the Netherlands can, for many years, sort of solve its issue simply by doing things smarter, because in many cases it's also that, as soon as a company - let's say

37:44 this company builds a charging plaza with a couple of megawatts - the DSO will, if you request 5 megawatts, reserve that for you at all times. And this is completely nonsense, because half of these trucks will be away most of the day, so your connection will actually be close to zero when the trucks are not there. Of course all the neighbours should be able to use that capacity right then and there. So I think in

38:14 many cases we'll just have to arrange things way smarter, and then we can probably go on for years and even expand. And I think in a certain sense it also shows the importance of public charging, because imagine 5 logistics companies nearby each other - if there's a big charging hub in the middle, then not everybody needs to build their own behind the gate and request their own connection that most of the day

38:47 nobody will use. So I think it's also just a matter of doing things well and talking smarter. This podcast is called Smart Charge by RiDERgy - what experiences do you have? I've seen it on LinkedIn as well: you have quite a few initiatives related to smart charging in the Netherlands already. Can you maybe share your experience and how it fits within what you just said? Yeah, I'm lucky because in

39:15 In Amsterdam is actually the first sort of real public trial where you can now use the AC chargers that were already there in the city. Some of them have been enabled to do what they call smart charging. And unfortunately, you need one charging app to do it, and then yeah, I think it's really this case where they're trying something cool, but for me it was - I thought that, let's say the first time I tried, I thought it would

39:53 be smart to plug in during the daytime when I am nearby the house a lot, and it's easy to plug in my dad's car if I feel like it. And then we have a lot of sunny days, especially in the weekend, where the energy price is close to zero or even negative. So I thought it would make sense for my first try to plug it in, let's say at 11, when there are so many public chargers in Amsterdam not in use anyway, so it's

40:22 sort of this optimal combination. But the thing is that they did this test - they are running it - it only rewards you when they can actually delay the session. So it has nothing to do with energy prices or the actual load. It is just that if you plug in at a moment that they don't want you to, and they can delay it for you because you say in the app when you need your car again, then they will calculate, because

40:52 they know your vehicle - you have to log in through the API - so they know how many hours are needed for it to fill up, and then it creates this situation where I've now tried several times and I've talked a bit with the people behind it. Yeah, at least I've found out how they want you to do it. So you sort of have to plug in at the suboptimal moment, and then it will delay the session for

41:19 you, and that's how you get the reward. The reward is based on that - the app will show you the price bracket that your session is delayed to, but it's not very clear. And then also this app is more expensive to use than the app I normally use. So in the end, half the time it didn't help me much. The best reward I ever got was, I think, just over €1, but in Amsterdam that means that you sort of

41:50 get gifted kilowatt hours, which is more than nothing. But if you look at the hassle I had to go through just to get that - I literally, because I wanted to have another proof of concept, plugged in the other night before I came here. And this reward was less than 20 cents, not even worth 1 kWh. And later I realized that if I would have just left home an hour earlier in the

42:23 morning and plugged in at the first Supercharger outside of Amsterdam at 8 a.m., I would save way more by doing that, because Tesla has variable pricing in the Netherlands and in many other countries as well. I think it's mainly based on the spot market, but I think it's also their local contract, because it differs per location completely. Just for the listeners who are not so familiar - and maybe you know it as well, which would be interesting - there are different value streams

42:54 if you want. One is the congestion of the grids, which means that the local distribution grids that we're talking about are heavily congested, so you help the grid by not charging at particular times when the grids are congested. And I assume that's the reward you get through the app we were just discussing, and not through the spot market, which is what you hinted at and what you expected the reward to be - like, it's a negative price, it's a spot market that changes every

43:21 hour - which is a different market, right? True, yeah. So that's definitely something to improve upon and to consider, both in a good smart charging solution. But there's one thing - I don't know if you had experience with it or if you know anything about it - but one thing that I also found interesting in the Netherlands is the V2G case of Utrecht, which apparently is one of the most advanced in the world. Have you seen anything of it, or could

43:49 the experience factor into your charging there? Well, I was invited to the opening, so I've seen how the concept works, and they say it is working. But yeah, this is one of those cases again where I wonder: OK, it is great, this will help the city of Utrecht for sure, it will definitely help the company running the shared vehicles, it might even help the companies selling these cars. But I do wonder - yeah, for me the question is

44:19 what's in it for me? Because if you live in Utrecht and you like to use these shared cars, I think the ultimate way to do these things is to make sure that people use them at the right time, people plug them in at the right time. And I wonder where are the incentives for the actual end user? Because these are Renault cars - I think it's super cool that Utrecht has them. I'm

44:51 sort of jealous that Amsterdam doesn't have them. Maybe we will get them at some point. But yeah, I just - if this V2G stuff means that somebody gets rewarded, I feel like it's not the people who sort of deserve it, which are the people in the streets who give up their car to use the shared car that is V2G capable. If they live with - oh, the lights can stay on, I'm so happy. No, like,

45:24 give them a discount on that car if it's doing V2G, which is making you money as the company. So it makes me a bit sad that I've seen many shared cars that I love to use and that I use a lot - they have mainly become more expensive. If I look at Berlin, where I tried many of the electric cars that I tried for the first time over my life, many of those cars are gone now, and the companies I used to use all

45:52 By now I have hardly seen only petrol shared cars, and it's 2025, and I see these things and I just wonder what's going on here. I'm afraid it has to do with - let's say this: I think some of these shared cars, I loved to use those electric cars in Berlin already years ago, but I guess not all the locals actually loved them so much, because there weren't many chargers, so probably you

46:27 would find a lot of these cars at half a charge and then not find a charger nearby. So I'm afraid that it definitely has to do with this real world where Berlin for many years hasn't helped these companies run the share, because a shared fleet needs public infrastructure to be successful. And it's a bit sad to see that now I walk through these Berlin streets where there's suddenly a lot of chargers available - so suddenly that fleet that I have in my

47:02 head from three years ago could charge everywhere now. And the actual fleet is gone, and probably sold at a loss or shipped to Denmark, because over there EVs are crazy successful. In one of the countries where several years ago I used DC public chargers already at half the price, because the spot market went lower and I could plug in at a DC charger during lunch for half price - in a country that already has attractive prices, but the price goes even lower in the

47:35 afternoon when you need your fast charger. So yeah, it's weird to me that in some places things are moving so fast, and then I come over here and I actually see this movement in infrastructure, but the fleet seems to struggle. Coming back to the Netherlands - a last point, and to your last point as well. What makes the Netherlands such - on the forefront - or Denmark, or other countries that you might have

48:04 in mind here in Europe, like Norway - what was the motivation or the reason behind them being so much in the leadership compared to other countries? Yeah, I think that if you look at Europe, it's sort of easy to see that most of these countries where EVs are successful either have a lot of infrastructure or have affordable infrastructure. But not only that - in many cases, if you look at Norway, there's simply no tax on EVs. So suddenly,

48:41 I just the other day found out that getting a Model Y in Norway is thousands of euros cheaper than here where it's built, because they don't tax it. So you ship it far from where it's made and then it becomes cheaper because there's simply no tax on it. So imagine if Germany simply said EVs have no tax - you can just sell them and we take no tax. EVs would be booming yesterday in Germany if you did that, because everybody wants the best

49:16 deal. I trust that blindly. So the thing is that EVs have to be the best deal. In China they are - that's the only reason why they're successful. If you want the very cheapest car of your life in China, you will always go EV, because it's cheaper to buy, it's cheaper to use, and probably in the city where you live, half the time you're not even allowed to drive petrol anymore, or they will restrict the days or the hours. And

49:45 I think these things - let's take the Paris example, because I love Paris for being so two-wheel friendly. In Europe, I would even say in Paris you see more electric motorbikes than in China. And why is that? Because of the local rules. Paris introduced paid parking for motorbikes, and on the day that they introduced this, they said electric motorbikes pay nothing. So everybody in Paris - well, I'm exaggerating, but a lot of people in Paris - that day switched to an

50:20 electric motorbike. You also got a discount for trading in your petrol bike, etc. But in Paris I can walk down a single street and see several electric motorbikes parked together charging up at the traffic light, and this is the only city in Europe where this happens - and that is because of a parking rule. It just shows you that if you set these rules correctly, which in the Netherlands was sort of this tax thing where everybody in the Netherlands

50:49 drives a company car - the new cars are old company cars - and there was simply no taxation if you went EV, so everybody took a Tesla. Half of all the Teslas in 2019 that came to Europe came to the Netherlands. It's now true in Belgium. In Belgium you will now see more German-made EVs than in Germany, because everybody still loves their German cars in Belgium and they simply pay no tax on them. In Denmark it's also this way, because if you walk into a Danish

51:18 showroom - let's say that you like BMW - the Danish showroom will simply show you the 4 Series at, let's say, 80,000 Danish kroner, and then it will be 60,000 to go for the i4. And I haven't even mentioned that Denmark, for example, also doesn't tax your electricity at home if you use solar and if you charge your EV, etc. So it becomes a complete no-brainer: you have this super expensive fossil purchase, or you go less than half price

51:50 by going EV. And then public infrastructure also has to be mentioned, because in Denmark it is absolutely wild - it's a small country and the highways have the most incredible fast-charging infrastructure of all of Europe, maybe except for Norway. But Norway is not EU, so it's sort of set apart - they're so far away. Denmark is so easy to visit if you come from Germany, and you will not believe your eyes, because it will be easy to

52:19 Pay by credit card, pay half the price of what you're used to, find more plugs available. Actually, in Germany I've been to many locations where there are, let's say, 40 Superchargers, or there's a big BMW charging park with, let's say, 30 plugs. But do I ever see them busy? OK, maybe on a winter sport day. But in Denmark - you can just drive to Denmark right now, be there in a couple of hours - and it will be crazy

52:47 busy at all these big charging parks, because everybody's driving EV today. The fleet growth there is so absurd that in some months this year they have imported more EVs than new sales, because they're that attractive to use. It's pretty cool. Let's talk about China. You have been there - when was it? - twice, in January and in April.

53:14 I visited places like Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Hangzhou. And it is a bit wild, because being in Berlin now and trying to compare it to one day in Shanghai or something - it is totally crazy. Because everything about it, if you take a cab ride, you will be in this old cab that, yeah, it looks like an old car, but it's an EV. And I've been in some

53:53 cabs that have 300,000 kilometres already driven, from brands that nobody here knows. And that cab driver - I've been with some cab drivers who were too young to know what a fossil car even means, and they will never drive one again, of course. So everything about it is just wild. And I think the crazy part is also that in a country like the Netherlands we've had a couple of Chinese companies active for a bit - they all

54:26 said they would come to Germany, but it's sort of going slower here. But in the Netherlands we had a couple of companies active for a while, and you can just see that things are moving so fast, in the sense that these EVs were already charging at 800 volts last year, but now they put in a new battery and it can go again like double the kilowatt rate. I recently tried the Zeeker car, and it is

54:59 actually sort of hard in the Netherlands to find a charger that can supply it with what it can handle. It can do over 400 kW - you actually need a charger capable of going way over 500 amps, which is not that common. And I think it's just this combination of - yeah, they simply had the fastest chargers I've ever seen. The cheapest charging I've ever seen was also there. What numbers can you talk about? Yeah, so when I

55:38 was trying a Zeeker car in Hangzhou, I was outside of the city, just clicking around on the screen. I wasn't in the city - I was nearby a lake, it felt kind of quiet - but on the screen I could see that in any direction I looked, within a couple of kilometres, there would be fast chargers of several speeds and several operators. And I found 120 kW charging at 10 cents, for example, but I

56:10 found 500 or 600 kW charging at 15 cents, and that was without looking, so I'm sure I didn't find the cheapest ones. And it's just so crazy to realise that you're in a country where, in China, a litre of petrol - if you don't get the right deal - will cost you €1, and 120 kW charging is easy to find at 10 cents. So that is not even having an

56:48 option - that is just: you go EV, it's 6 times cheaper. That is just so wild. And I think the speed of these changes - I've been in these models that already impressed me last year, even though the ADAS is never as good as a German one that I've tried so far. Even in the Zeeker car it can charge way faster than a BMW, but the BMW can still handle the Autobahn better. And

57:21 you can never use the cruise control at the highest speed, and whatever - so there are still ways in which the Germans can say, you know, we offer something that they don't, and for now that is totally true. But it might be just next year that that is no longer true, because of the speed at which things are moving. And this is where I just wonder if we are aware enough of these things moving at the speed that they are. Because Volkswagen - yeah, OK -

57:53 somebody told me this morning on Bluesky that they will get to a million EVs this year, which sounds amazing, and if it's true, that's even more amazing. But then you realise that Volkswagen sells 10 million vehicles, so actually only 1 out of 10 is an EV. And then if the competition that makes 5 million cars already is all-EV - yeah, what will that be next year? And the thing is, I really think that people don't realise that

58:29 when these battery prices come down the way that they are, it will be so easy to even install hubs in America. Tesla has now built their biggest site ever - they say without a grid connection, though not actually true, it has a tiny grid connection - but that really shows you there's suddenly a charging site that has a 1.5 MW connection if I'm not mistaken, and they have 10 of these Megapacks, so they can actually just handle 1,000 Teslas coming in in a

59:02 couple of hours, charge them all. And that can be done, thanks to these batteries, in a location in the middle of nowhere. And I think that in Europe that kind of middle of nowhere doesn't even exist, but that is sort of the point - we don't even have that kind of middle of nowhere, and still we're going too slow with this. That really frustrates me, because I feel like in the mega cities that I visited in

59:29 China, yeah. It's sort of, you have challenges that I think in a way are tougher than what we have here, but they're tackling them at a speed that as a European is almost impossible to believe, right? So you saw an immense amount of charge points in the apps that you - and that is also this weird thing where I did see, for example, a lot of AC chargers walking around. But the weird thing is that you really notice that

1:00:02 what I already felt a bit in the Netherlands: it's very easy to live in a place where AC charging might not be ideal. In my opinion, if an AC charger is running at 50 cents per kilowatt hour, I think for what it is that is sort of inexcusably expensive. The thing is that in my opinion those kind of chargers become a luxury for people who don't mind, people who don't pay for it themselves, or people who simply

1:00:36 need that charge - they will clearly plug in. But if you run the right DC charging infrastructure, you can definitely go below those prices, but it has to be smart infrastructure, of which we don't have that much in Europe. And in China, you see that I noticed a lot of the AC chargers were sometimes more expensive than the DC chargers I saw all over the place. And you could also see that DC chargers were everywhere. There were all of these

1:01:09 cars using infrastructure that wasn't built for their car. I also saw a lot of old EVs that I'd never seen before - they cannot even charge fast, but they can charge and it's cheap, so people will use them and they will be super interesting secondhand and whatever. And I think that is also this point that in Europe there is sort of this risk where we are making a lot of EVs. A company like Volkswagen is producing a very decent

1:01:38 amount of EVs. And in Italy, where I want people to go EV at a faster rate than the Netherlands because they deserve it, it doesn't make any sense for most people to do it. And if we don't fix that, then I don't know what we're actually doing. Because yeah, this idea - in Europe we're still at this point where it is not even weird to see that an EV is something for people who can afford it, and that

1:02:14 doesn't make any sense given the logistics of actual EVs. But it's true in many places. Was there anything else that was very surprising to you in China compared to your experience in Europe? I know we touched upon the payment via WeChat - or like, you can elaborate maybe on that. It is absolutely wild that - let's say, in my case, let's just

1:02:45 tell my story. I downloaded both WeChat and Alipay, and with those two apps I lived 3 weeks in China. I bought food in the street at night from a lady who had this bike cart frying super tasty stuff at the most absurd prices ever, and there's just this QR code hanging at the stand. When I scanned it - faster than I've ever done a payment in Europe - she gets this loud message from her phone or whatever

1:03:24 device that I had paid. And so there's also this realization that there's just no friction. And it is a crazy consumerist society. When I walk around China, I feel like I'm in a hyperdrive version of the America that I thought I knew, where there are cars everywhere, big cities with just skyscrapers all over the place. It really in

1:04:01 many ways looks like America to me, but things are affordable, everything is digital, public transport is mind-blowing. And it's a bit strange to be in this place that looks like America but where everything feels like it's working.

1:04:23 And that is just - yeah - and then the EV case makes it even crazier of course. But I think it's also a case of - I guess they have a younger population pyramid where there are just so many digital natives. If I'm in a Berlin metro - I was in the Berlin metro this morning - I will clearly see a couple of people on their phones, and we have a lot of phones here, that's not the point. But if you're

1:04:58 in a Chinese metro, first of all, it's three times the size of any metro you've ever seen in Europe. I've maybe been in one quiet metro, but the other 50 metros were busy. So it's just the crowd size and how they handle it, and you also realize that if you don't go digital when you have those kind of crowds, nothing works. So it sort of makes sense for them to have done that from

1:05:28 the beginning. And then I read an article this morning about a Dutch coastal town in the south, Domburg, where they didn't want to upgrade the parking meters to ones that don't accept cash anymore because they get so many German visitors who expect to pay for parking with cash. And it just made me smile, because if you were to read that about a Chinese fishing village that gets a lot of tourists from another province, nobody would believe you -

1:06:04 because I haven't seen cash in the 3 weeks that I was there. So you paid, for example, the charging with WeChat or Alipay. How can I imagine that - was the UX the same for each charge point? Well, this is the thing: they have this crazy model where in WeChat there are these mini apps for everything. So the WeChat app is sort of a portal to the Chinese digital world, and as soon as you go to a new city, it takes

1:06:36 You know, when you take your first metro there, you sort of have to log in to the metro. But yeah, it is frictionless, you just have to say yes to their terms or whatever circumstances. And yeah, the same thing with the charging - usually you just scan it with WeChat and you get into this mini app of that provider, and that is the way that you pay. And then you don't

1:07:03 have the risk - you know, the QR code fraud was a big debate here in Europe. So I think, but of course I'm not Chinese, so that is one that we would need to research. The WeChat as a portal probably creates this situation where you're not scanning a QR code with your camera, which I'm used to in Europe. If I scan a QR code I use my camera. And

1:07:32 it could lead to any website, it could be anything. And the trick, I think, is that the WeChat app scans the QR code and will probably only send you to the parties that it knows. I would not be surprised to hear about somebody figuring out a way around that, but the thing is that

1:08:05 I haven't seen many Chinese websites - that's the thing. Everything is hidden behind these mega portals. I feel like there's hardly, I cannot even prove to you that Chinese websites do a lot. Clearly there will be many sites I don't know about, but I didn't see, you know - here in Europe we also maybe advertise websites less, but for me it's still completely normal to go

1:08:36 to a website when I want information. When I met people there, they never went to a website to show me anything. They went to WeChat, they went to the mini app of the car rental or whatever, and that is where they would show me stuff. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if you know, but I also have some history with China, so the super app concept there is quite different to what we know in Europe. There's this mini

1:09:00 app for everything, which makes it quite convenient when you're there. So you don't have many MSPs like we know it, where you would download a separate app - you would only use the mini app. Yeah, it's sort of a world where we really know the app store as the center where we do those things, and I really feel like they don't. And talking EVs now, in terms of really the vehicles, if

1:09:31 you had to rank them from the best experiences you've had so far to the worst ones, maybe you can

1:09:41 share a few examples and stories.

1:09:47 When you talk about this, immediately I think of, for example, when I traveled to France five years ago with an Aiways, and that was one of the first times I could try a Chinese EV. They were very early to come to the Netherlands. The brand is called Aiways. They aren't even active anymore in China, so they just sell in Europe - I'm not sure how much right now, it's very difficult to find out what's actually going on. But anyway, I took

1:10:16 that car to France and, the way it charged - even the way that they put the CCS plug on the front of the car, sideways, so I had many struggles with CCS cables to actually get them in and I had to sit on the asphalt to even plug it in. It just shows you that, yeah, did anybody ever try this before they launched it? And it would have this

1:10:48 big eye looking at me, so I immediately put something on it and luckily it didn't complain. It pretended to be able to do CarPlay, but it couldn't. And I think that is also - I even tried other Chinese vehicles last year that were promising CarPlay but didn't have it. But this is where you see, yeah, they're moving very fast, so nowadays CarPlay is already normal. They actually can upgrade a lot of

1:11:21 things over the air, so you can see that they're improving the things that I complained about maybe just a year ago. And yeah, there's really this difference in that some of these companies are maybe just too small - like this Aiways company, I'm not aware that they have a very big parent company behind them. But in China, in Europe you might see a brand like Zeekr or even Polestar, and many people

1:11:58 will simply see that and have no idea - I was in Gothenburg the other month and there were Polestars everywhere. I think that many Swedes, and of course Polestar has a big office there, but when I see a Polestar I think of Geely because I'm interested in the industry. And I think that a company like that - when you walk around the average city in China, what you see driving around - like when I visited

1:12:33 Guangzhou in January, the normality of the Zeekr 001 - I know of two of those cars in Amsterdam. In Guangzhou, you can be at one traffic light and already see three, and the rest of the day this will continue. You can see thousands on a single day just walking the city. And you just realise that this car that here still looks new and is already pretty impressive for what it does at the price - over there, completely casual. They've already upgraded it three times. It charges

1:13:09 double the speed that it does here. They don't even sell the faster charging version here because nobody cares. The infrastructure isn't there anyway. It's already competitive with many German cars, so. Yeah, it's a bit crazy, and the luxury is also wild, because you can really see this complete difference in approach to screens. In China, even some cities in China feel like a screen because they're projecting stuff on these buildings, and I also wonder: what are you doing and

1:13:41 why. But that doesn't matter - it doesn't matter if it impresses me. The thing is that if you sit in a modern Chinese EV that costs a bit of money, then yeah, I've sat in one that had two 6K screens: one in the front for the driver and the passenger, and another 6K screen in the back. And I realized, sitting there watching some Chinese movie, that I don't have any friends who have a 6K screen at home. And in

1:14:13 China, I don't want to say that it's normal yet in cars to have several, but soon it will be. And obviously that doesn't matter to us - it won't suddenly create a screen obsession for Europeans who need 6K screens in their car. But for any Chinese person that will be normal, and they will not accept anything less. If we don't build that, they will never buy anything German anymore - not a chance. And these things matter because half of the German

1:14:42 exports were to China, and in 3 years, if you were to ask me, I would say zero is expected. My question was also related more to your experience with any type of EV, not necessarily only Chinese. So if you had to share what your top EV models are - I mean, I don't know how many EV models you have been driving, and never enough - but the one I will always mention is the Taycan, because it is still the nicest one I

1:15:14 have driven myself, just in the way that it gave this feeling of being connected to the road in an EV, which is completely unusual, because even today many EVs aren't built that way. And it just shows you that, yeah, I think they were right to go EV very early. Many people think nowadays - there's an article written - that they sort of went too early, and I think that's completely false. They were absolutely right to go early, and unfortunately

1:15:53 I'm not sure if they put in the right batteries and everything, but it was still - even though I now charge a Chinese vehicle as fast as a Taycan - that is 5 years later, so you can see that they really set a benchmark in 2020. It could charge at a peak rate of 270 kW and could hold it for a while, so it created this opportunity to charge close to 60 kWh in 15 minutes. So even

1:16:25 today that is still very impressive. And the new Taycan, which I have never driven, charges even faster. So that is just a very good product. But then again, you can really notice - I sat in one the other week because a friend of mine actually has one nowadays. They're - I'm not going to say affordable, but you can buy them secondhand at a very different price than they were new. And you notice that, yeah, if you

1:16:57 come from a recent EV, it does feel different - it feels more like a car. There are a lot of buttons. You sit really well, you sit really low, which is still very unusual in most EVs. But then again, it will always be a niche product for what it is, and I think that is where I wonder if they have the right approach with going Macan afterwards -

1:17:36 delayed - and I feel like the Cayenne is also delayed again. I would say those products already needed to be there. This Taycan drive that I enjoyed so much is so long ago that, on the one hand, I'm still so impressed by it and I forever will keep that experience. But what happened in the meantime? I was looking forward with some German friends to try the Boxster, and we did a road trip together to Glasgow actually, to

1:18:09 the Cup. It was 2021, and back then we all felt like the Boxster EV was coming, and we talked about our potential road trip together - as newly made friends - as our target. And here I'm sitting with you, 4 years after discussing that with some German guys, and we were all ready for that product years ago. Now it's been delayed to, I think, 2027. And you talked about Porsche, and one company that tries

1:18:48 to measure itself at the same level - which I find also particularly interesting - is Xiaomi, which is sort of doing what Apple didn't, and created the - for those that don't know, Xiaomi is this big smartphone and other electronics manufacturer, very successful, quite actually late in creating - I think in 2012 or so, not so long ago - but now being wildly hyped, maybe rightfully so. I would be curious to hear your opinion. So

1:19:20 just to put a few of the brands that are a lot on my mind in terms of shaping e-mobility: BYD of course, Xiaomi from China, you already touched upon Geely - maybe the three leading ones in China. And then in Europe we have the German automakers that are kind of very wary at the moment; they're trying, but not trying enough. I'd be curious to see this comparison and how it will develop in the upcoming

1:19:47 years in your view. Yeah, so that was one of the very cool things to be in China this year, because I was just so surprised - even because I visited both in January and in April - that I could see this difference. I already saw a lot of Xiaomis back in January. But then going again in April, they had just released the Ultra, I think a couple of weeks before I actually went, and walking around a city like Shenzhen, I could simply go around the city

1:20:23 and just see several Ultras driving around. Yeah, you can really notice that there's a serious crowd that is into getting the new thing. And yeah, I didn't drive it, so I just visited the showroom, but just seeing the crazy amount of shopping malls over there filled with stores selling phones and stuff. But the thing is that nowadays if you walk into these Huawei stores - that you didn't mention - or Xiaomi stores,

1:21:05 yeah, easily half of the store is lined up with - could be laptops, could be tablets, could be vacuum cleaners in the case of Xiaomi. And the other half of the store is suddenly packed with cars. So when I visited, the Ultra was taking center stage in April, and then around it would be the slower versions. But let's say that you and I would fly into Shenzhen tomorrow - it's still July when we

1:21:42 record this, so that's months after I just visited - and the Xiaomi store would already look like a new store to me again, because their new model would now be in the middle. And that's going to be crazy competitive to Model Y, no doubt. Forgot, of course - Tesla, to have your view on Tesla as well. Yeah, very interesting one to keep an eye on. And what you see is just that this approach - that a company like Xiaomi should

1:22:13 be compared to things like Apple because they offer an ecosystem - and that, yeah, if you're like a 30-year-old in China with some decent job, then probably you could have a house full of Xiaomi stuff doing your lights, doing your vacuuming, doing all kinds of things around the house, and automate them. And now your car gets integrated into this. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they would also do home batteries and

1:22:49 stuff at some point. But yeah, a company like BYD is probably a better example of that, because they already have that value chain built in. But yeah, you can really see that there's just this full set of offering, and the car is just a new part of their bigger puzzle. And it just shows you that people can go around and they will sort of never leave such a place, so they will always look at the Xiaomi system

1:23:22 next. And I wanted to buy a walkie-talkie there, but I couldn't, because they needed them - they had a lot of walkie-talkies around, but they needed them as demos for this car shop. And it also showed me that I thought I was in a shopping mall because people went shopping there, but actually people shop on their phones. So even though the Xiaomi car is in front of you, most people will buy them on their phone. And that is really, I think, where Tesla comes

1:23:50 in - in that they're still one of the very few where you can simply go to the website right now and get yourself a Tesla on your phone as we sit here. You could do the purchase before we end this podcast. And that company has been doing that for over a decade, and it really makes me wonder that there are very few companies who actually simply copy that model to do the same - nothing else, not better, simply the same -

1:24:25 to be a competitor to Tesla. And I think that is really where the Germans shine in absolutely missing the point, because they don't offer this - like even just a German configurator of a car. Clearly I get that some people want a very personalized experience, so there will always be a space for that. But the simplicity of buying a Tesla is a selling point, and I think Xiaomi copies that in a big way, because I just went on their website in the store there. And it was just

1:25:02 very easy to click around and get an SU 7. And now we could do the same with the YU 7. Before you buy, you see the waiting time for your product, so you can decide on upgrading to get a faster one, because it will be there in 30 weeks instead of in 50 weeks. And this is the same trick that Tesla has been playing - they can just release a new product, they will give you the fast one, and later

1:25:31 there will be an even faster model and boom, there will be a new hype cycle around that. And yeah, I think that is really - yeah, it just shows you that also the Americans - because let's not focus on the Germans only - the Americans, excluding Tesla, have also missed that point completely. They live in their dealer model bubble so deeply that they think that is the only way, and with EVs that will never be true. So you

1:26:03 need to get out of it, and if you don't find a way then you will get stuck. And that is such a risk that I feel - that Europe as a whole is just in this place where yeah, I think we are doing some things better than the Americans for example, but we're also really missing, yeah, seeing what we could do at the same time. And yeah, with Tesla it is just fascinating that - here is a product that

1:26:34 I guess, yeah, they always stood for simplicity. Their software is super well polished. On that level, I think there's very little competition even today. But yeah, you can see that where once they offered faster charging than most, if you go to China today, almost any brand - even some brands that would be almost regarded as budget - they would be very competitive to the Tesla experience. So luckily for Tesla, they are still very efficient and hardly anybody beats them at this, maybe the

1:27:11 Germans. But then in China, when you look at what charging costs, for example, how many people will be very interested in efficiency. So I think that is also the element where Europe can really focus on that, because we are good at it and we can choose to stay good at it. So I'm very happy to see a brand like Mercedes really focusing on such a thing. But at the same time, how did we make it

1:27:45 to the summer of 2025 and I'm not seeing the CLA anywhere? I know you can buy it. I don't know when you will get it if you did, but I'm not seeing that. I just want to see them in the streets - when we would travel somewhere, we would see this car. And let's also go into this point where it freaks me out that in America - if you look at America from the global perspective, I

1:28:17 think nobody is utterly failing at EVs as bad as America. Yet they have Lucid, they have Rivian. There's another company coming with another BEV truck, and they wanted to use the subsidies that are already canceled and whatever. But where is the European Rivian? Where is the European Lucid? Well, European Lucid, some people might say Rimac, but I say there's no scale. You're just not comparing it. I want these things to be true, yeah,

1:28:58 yeah, the solar car, yeah. And that's, I think, even more painful. Some people tried these things and they really deserved a lot of support. They didn't get it. And yeah, it just shows you that Xiaomi is really succeeding and is at the very beginning of something that can be so big, no European will ever believe it. That shows you things that are about to come to us, and there's no way for us to stop them. We have to be better. Who's

1:29:31 going to do it? Yeah, just BYD - because it's the number one. Do you see it as staying number one, or have you driven one? BYD is a funny one because they do so much. You can go to California and drive a school bus there with some kids and it could be a BYD school bus in Los Angeles. That really surprises me. You can run into them anywhere. I've been in the weirdest cities where I suddenly saw a

1:30:00 BYD bus and I could not believe my eyes. And then at the same time, when I sit in some of their cars - if you sometimes use a Tesla and then you get to the Atto 3 interface, well, they don't compete. Yet the Atto 3 in the Netherlands costs €38,000 and the Model 3 in the Netherlands costs €40,000, so there's €2,000 between those. But yeah, when talking BYD, they're so colossal that I really feel that

1:30:40 the only sort of comparison that I dare to make is to the VW Group, and there you can already see that some things are really mismatched, because clearly VW Group doesn't have the battery potential that they do. And I'm not aware how VW is into buses. But anyway, they have this classical approach where they would operate a normal dealership, and that gives them also this edge where they will operate, I think, a competitive amount

1:31:21 of dealerships to most European brands, probably by the end of next year in Europe. And those dealerships will sell cars, and that means that those people will not buy a European car. I think many people will like what they buy because, in the Netherlands now and similarly in Denmark, for example, but even in France, on the highway I see these Seal U cars everywhere. And in the Netherlands, more than half of them this year have been

1:32:01 petrol cars with a battery plug-in. And it really shows you that the European Commission - at least that's what they say - thought that these electric cars from China are sort of a risk to European automakers or whatever, and we needed more time. So they introduced tariffs on the electric cars. What the European Commission did, in my opinion, is they made the plug-ins even more attractive for the Chinese to sell, and they can make way more money

1:32:38 doing it. And there's a very large crowd in Europe totally not ready to go EV, because in your local neighbourhood charging will probably be either unknown to you, expensive, or you're just not interested - I could go on, the list goes on forever. So this is a bit hilarious, because even some of the companies that I was a big fan of in the past in China are all going into EREVs, because the thing is that even in China, first of all, many people can afford to

1:33:07 still buy petrol. And also can afford to just not care, not want to care about charging, because you will need to figure things out with an app. You will need to figure out where the charger is, even if it's around the block from your house. If you're used to going to the gas station, maybe you just don't mind. So the thing is, you see that a lot of companies that used to sell BEV only in China are going to

1:33:37 Also sell EVs. Xiaomi is one of them, because there will be a huge crowd for it, and it just shows you that, yeah, that is even more danger to us, I feel, because it just shows you these cars are just so competitive that for us to stay competitive as Europe, it is going to be so challenging. I think half the people here just don't want to know, but that is really not that interesting. And switching gears - but also a good segue.

1:34:08 BYD announced with Octopus Energy in the UK a big V2G program that they just launched, and it got me quite excited about this. For the listeners, it's like a £300 package, I think, with leasing a car, and then you get driving for free if you adhere to the V2G conditions of Octopus Energy. What do you make of that particular announcement, and in general, as an EV driver, what's your take on V2G and what would be your ideal

1:34:43 smart charging V2G package, so to say, in your day to day? Yeah, that UK package is super interesting, and it really shows you that here we have an agile energy player in the UK that is taking over half the market and becoming a real UK colossus. And you can see that a company like BYD comes in - and that could have been a Tesla deal, you know, they have a Powerwall. They started selling it in way more countries over the last weeks in

1:35:14 Europe than ever before. I think they feel the threat, and it shows you that BYD just comes in there. They have more models to offer, they have batteries to go around, and they will just sell you this stuff - and they can subsidize if they want, whatever. And it's just, in the UK I think these things make so much sense, because - we talked about this already - the public charging is a bit hit and miss, definitely pricing wise. And as far as I'm aware,

1:35:46 the numbers in the UK are like 50% of people can park in their own driveway. And yeah, that is an amount that in most European countries we don't get close to, so the market potential there for home charging and home batteries is crazy big. There's just such a big potential customer group, and yeah, these incentives to get a good monthly price and then even good energy rates - you will just plug it in when you get home anyway, and the

1:36:23 app takes care of it. They know your vehicle, they know your energy rhythm, so yeah, these things are like a no-brainer. The mathematics add up three times over. It's just so absurd. And I think that is also the part of - yeah, many car companies will not go to that stage where they sort of really - like, they sort of will become a part-time energy company, or at least they could have been. And I think this potential, yeah,

1:36:58 for a company like BYD is natural because they come from the battery side of things, but that is just, yeah, completely unusual of course in the industry. And yeah, I would expect such offers coming to any European country that has an Octopus-like player - could happen yesterday. I think the potential is huge. The company - I'm so used to a country like the Netherlands that I'm always focused on the public charging side. So in the Netherlands it's

1:37:34 so unusual - for a huge group of people it's highly unusual that you park in front of your own house, like on your own property. That's not the norm. Clearly there are a lot of properties where people own cars and it's very different, but yeah, as soon as you get close to Amsterdam this will become completely unusual. And there's a million people there, which is already close to 10% of the country anyway, so we have to do things publicly.

1:38:03 And that is why I'm super eager to see public charging testing going to a stage where every charger cooperates, way more apps support this, and mainly, really, this incentive for me to plug in at the right time - or know when I should - because that is really where I think right now we're just missing out so much. People are unaware. Like, how many people in Europe even know the kWh price at their house? I feel like that is just not

1:38:40 - clearly, thanks to things happening in the east, this has changed a bit, so some people clearly found out. But yeah, it's still just - I think, and that is also where I just wonder if the EU is just alert enough to understand that, yeah, kWh education - we should get it in school. It's just basic. And if you had to - maybe you have thought about it - but if you had to

1:39:15 imagine what would be the ideal future V2G case. I've put some thought into it, obviously, and what we think is that the user should have a seamless experience in the sense of not having too much manual input. Somehow the app should learn from past behavior, or from integrations within your calendar or other types of data points that are useful to understand the user's preferences, so that you just have to plug in and it

1:39:49 - probably the app would learn when you would like to plug in and when you would like to leave again and use the vehicle, so that the mobility needs are, more and more with time, learned. And then it just automatically schedules the charging so that you are able to drive the next kilometer range that you need. If there's an exception you might be able to specify it, but that should be the exception rather than the

1:40:14 rule, and then you minimize your cost as much as you can, even maybe as far to zero, as in the Octopus case in the UK, for a public charger. But for private, or for a public charger - is that so... how would you, have you put some thought into, or what would you think, what would be the ideal case in the hopefully very upcoming future? Yeah, well, I think that definitely the automation part of

1:40:41 things is just so important, because clearly there will just not be this acceptance that people don't want to be pushing buttons all day, plugging in at the right time - these things don't make any sense. But if you can remotely start things, and if they just happen because the system knows that it's the right thing to do - or the reward you simply set, that you want to be rewarded and the system will be more aggressive about it - you can live

1:41:10 with it because you're flexible enough. Clearly people live different lives, so there should be different settings. But I wonder a lot about how we can make such things work in public, because really, when I look at a city like where I live in Amsterdam, I actively - yeah, I have this curious mind where I just wonder: OK, we have been growing the charging network a lot, but still, the fleet, even though the Amsterdam fleet is very electrified,

1:41:46 there's still a lot of old cars around. And yeah, how would it actually look to sort of go full - like if everybody had an EV? We would simply need many more plugs in public places to make a V2G case work, and it would be so easy to see how it could work, because I think it would make total sense. You create more flex if more people can plug in, you have more flexibility. So ideally you want that, but do

1:42:21 you actually want to see this city full of chargers? That is a very dubious one. So I always wonder how that could actually look, and I think that you see in the neighborhoods that are more recently built what happens in a place like Amsterdam - and I guess the same here - is that way more cars are actually put under buildings, etc. And I think as soon as you have a big garage and stuff, to have

1:42:53 a battery there, plugs everywhere - literally a garage. If you build a garage today and you don't put in the wiring for these kinds of models, then I think you're just - yeah, either you don't want to join where we're going, or the incentives are maybe just wrong in your market. But I think this is really where the EU has to be signaling and really push these member states, because if these things are happening in

1:43:29 Denmark, they will never build a new garage without plugs. And in Sweden, I've been to parking garages where the whole deck has chargers. I hardly see that in the Netherlands, but in Sweden it's quite common. And you see that they are also smart about it, because these chargers aren't fast, but it doesn't matter - these cars just stay there, they just plug in, they charge slowly, it's affordable. In these scenarios, that's exactly

1:43:59 what you want. But the idea - I want to see those things around the EU, and ideally just globally. But you can see that it's going at very different speeds around Europe, and I think that's a risk we shouldn't be taking. Because the thing is, people say that China moves so fast because they don't have the oil. Well, we don't have the oil either, so why aren't we moving as

1:44:34 fast, or faster? We can move faster - nothing is stopping us. All right, yeah, with that sentence, maybe you have a last message you would like to leave listeners with. Well, mainly to just try driving electric. Maybe you don't own an EV, but take my advice: rent one for the weekend, for the day, try a shared car, because the chances are just so very low that you won't enjoy it, that yeah, you should. Felix, thank

1:45:12 you, and keep it up. I think you're doing a great job.

1:45:20 Wow, what an episode with Felix - Electric Felix - who is clearly passionate about the industry and has shown us in so many ways his expertise and his experiences. The most fascinating ones for me are the Netherlands, the geographical differences between the different countries, the incentives clearly being key for an effective transition to EVs, and incentivizing people with tax breaks, for example, having enough charge points everywhere, having the Chinese with very cheap electric vehicles, but also down to 10 cents per kWh type of pricing. There's also

1:45:55 the Xiaomi and other types of software dominance, and experiences from Tesla as well, and how to purchase cars and how to pay for electric charging - that needs to definitely be the case to motivate people to make the transition. His personal story was also quite fun, and understanding his why with the electric motorbikes, and also his experiences in most EU countries and comparing them with Germany, unfortunately having yet to deliver better results, but I'm sure we will do better. And his view on

1:46:36 smart charging, his experiences as he tested the Amsterdam pilot - and there as well, having to combine spot market-based charging as well as DSO grid congestion will make it very smart - or the V2G case, which shouldn't be limited only to Renault 5s in Utrecht. There's still a way to go, but it's already a start. Yeah, I think it was a great episode. I hope you liked it. Feel free to share and tune in next time.