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Smart Charge · S2 · Episode 8 · 29 September 2026 · 1 hr 25 min

Katrin Herda, TST Gruppe und Dragonize

Depotladen für E-LKW, geteilte Ladeinfrastruktur, Lastspitzen und Netzanschluss

Transcript

Cleaned up from a machine transcript. Translations are machine-generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy Podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets. Public charging has at times cost the TSD Group up to €0.10 per kilowatt-hour. At their own depots, the price today is €0.20 net. The story of this episode sits right in that gap. My guest is Katrin Herder. At the TSD Group, she is responsible for charging infrastructure in combination with photovoltaics, battery storage, and energy management.

across the company's nationwide sites, and she built the logistics provider's charging network together with Dragonise. The idea behind it is compellingly simple. Their own trucks are out on the road during the day. Meanwhile, the expensive charging infrastructure at the depot sits idle - so they opened it up to other hauliers. We talk about 31 e-trucks in operation, a freshly commissioned storage system with 6 MW, and why sharing your own charging points doesn't automatically turn a logistics company into an energy supplier. Enjoy the conversation with Katrin Herder. Hello, Katrin. Great to have you here today.

How are you doing today? I'm doing very well. I had a relaxed journey here, so that's great. Exactly, from Heidelberg to Berlin. Yes. Before we dive into Dragonise or TST, let's talk a bit more about you. What's your background? I joined TST just over two and a half years ago. That's where I started building out the charging infrastructure. I was asked whether I'd like to set it up across all of our logistics sites - specifically for trucks. And since then, of course, the scope has grown considerably.

These days I get to manage all the projects - PV, battery storage, and charging infrastructure for trucks in combination, each at our logistics sites. I also oversee energy management for us, and of course the charging network, the Dragonise charging network. Wow, yes, quite a few topics. We have a lot to talk about. I'm glad. Before we get into all that: how did you end up in this role? Well, I studied business administration in the traditional sense, but in every job I've had before this one, there was always a technical aspect involved. It was always there.

And I always had a technical interest. It ran like a common thread through my entire career. Most recently I was at a trailer manufacturer, but even there I was in data processing - in the telematics unit. And so at some point you look around and think about what you could do next. And then it was more or less by chance that I got into a conversation with Mr. Schmidt, the owner of TST.

And in that conversation we basically decided it would be a good idea for me to take over and build up the truck charging infrastructure area at TST. That's great. One thing that's also close to my heart is getting more women excited about the topics that drive us here. What would you say? How can you inspire other women to follow your path? And what was the key moment for you that got you excited about technology, logistics, energy, and so on?

I grew up in a city where a major car manufacturer has a significant presence, right in the middle of Germany. And it felt like a large number of people in the whole neighbourhood worked there. That somehow sparked an interest. My first internship was also at that car manufacturer - at the main site, though. That's where I first came into contact with it, and I liked it. It always excited me. And all it really takes is a technical interest.

You don't need to understand every technical detail in depth. It's enough to have a broad overview, to understand how things connect, and to know what matters in the details. And what were the core interests or areas of responsibility you had that you feel you took a lot away from - the ones that ultimately brought you to your current role? I've held positions in project management myself.

I've been a project manager myself, which of course helps a great deal when it comes to knowing: what processes do I need to pay attention to? Where do I need to make corrections? What does implementation actually look like in practice? In one of my earlier jobs, for example, I managed a project as project manager for a large mobile crane. Those are genuinely exciting projects where you also need to bring a bit of technical understanding, because when engineering revises something, you should at least be able to understand what they've done.

And I always managed that balance between the technical and the commercial side quite well - that mix just kept developing, and it carried on from there. And then charging infrastructure was my entry point into my current role. This new technology totally fascinated me. And above all: you could never have imagined that cars would already be running on electricity. And now the trucks are running electrically, and it works perfectly.

That really does need to be said at this point. They're increasingly coming into their own now. And Schmitz Cargobull - they're specialists in telematics and trucks as well. Schmitz Cargobull is a trailer manufacturer that operates internationally. And I was in the telematics unit there.

I always describe it like the black box in an aircraft – the box that ultimately records the data, all the sensor readings and so on. Because everyone wants their yogurt to arrive properly chilled at the supermarket where they buy it. And that is exactly what this box monitored, among many other things. It is also a regulatory requirement – you have to do it in order to obtain certain quality certifications in those sectors at all. Yes, interesting. And then, straight after Schmitz, came TST.

Did I understand that correctly? Yes. And at TST, did you move straight into e-mobility? Or did you have a different role before that? No. I joined directly. And I then built out the charging infrastructure at our main site in Worms – it had not been set up yet. So I came into the project at that stage. We took another look at how it was going to be built. We actually replanned a few things as well, because I –

And that is simply where the experience from Schmitz Cargobull came in – from working with logistics companies – so I already knew how certain processes work. Schmitz Cargobull also has its own refrigeration unit, for example. That was one of those things where I said straight away: okay, we should make sure there are high-power sockets at those charging infrastructure spots, so that – let's say – the truck is not being charged electrically at the front while a diesel refrigeration unit is running at the back, but that both can operate in parallel.

All refrigeration units in that case already have an electrical connection. And then you can of course factor that in from the start. But it has not happened at many sites yet. I keep getting asked about it by hauliers who also run refrigerated operations. And at exactly that point it is very gratefully received when someone thinks that through – or that there are drive-through lanes where possible, so that you do not always have to reverse out towards the warehouse. Sometimes that cannot be avoided.

In our case it could be avoided. And that is why we made those adjustments. I could definitely benefit from the fact that I had already been working in a logistics environment beforehand. Because the refrigeration units – you might not think about this if you do not come from the industry – are separate systems. Yes, you have to think everything through. And the TST Group: how did it actually come about that they committed to e-mobility, or that they created this role for you?

Well, one thing that definitely helped – Mr Schmidt, I should mention – the owner, he is always open to innovation. He always enjoys trying something new. And he always has a very, very good gut feeling. In this case, he simply spoke with our fleet manager as well. The vehicles were tested, and then, with the KsNI funding scheme, the decision was made to acquire a certain number of vehicles – eight in this case.

And they had already been ordered when I started. But then the question was: how are we actually going to charge the vehicles? That meant it was clear that truck charging infrastructure somehow had to be created. And that is how it came about that someone was needed to build the whole thing. And of course there was an additional, very clear impulse when – let's say – energy costs shot up so sharply due to all the conflicts within Europe, and there was such a dependency on that.

And that is actually where the idea for PV came from – putting PV panels on the roof. And then a kind of circle closed. On one side you had an enormous consumer in the form of the trucks. On the other side, the decision was made to become more self-sufficient through the PV installations. And he brought it all together, so to speak, so that we can genuinely use our own energy for the trucks.

And it is always the case that when we build truck charging infrastructure, we make sure by whatever means that there is PV at the sites, that we are genuinely working with green energy, and that it becomes – let's say – a complete cycle. Even better with battery storage than without. Does that exist there? Yes. And before we dive any deeper: the TST Group as a company – can you give a few key figures? How long has it been around? How big is it? What are its core activities? Yes, of course, happy to. TST is still an owner-managed family business.

Mr Schmidt – TST has existed for 36 years. And he started out with a single truck, which I also find incredibly impressive as a story. And what has grown from that is that TST now has warehouses across Germany, around 85 sites in total, with a current fleet of 120 vehicles. From one to 120 – remarkable! From one to 120. Yes, exactly, including all the warehouses together. We also have over one million square metres of warehouse space. And that of course offers – where there is warehouse space, there is the same amount of roof space – which we can of course make good use of.

That is also the key point where I always say: okay, the core business is and remains TST, and we attach ourselves to it, so to speak, and complement it through things like renewable energy or charging infrastructure, and can of course also use those sites that we then bring into the charging network as well. That makes sense given the core activities. What kind of logistics can you picture there? Well, pretty much every sector you can think of is covered: food, non-food, automotive. However, TST's specialisation is pharma and chemicals.

We have large chemical and pharmaceutical warehouses that really need special protection, including fire suppression systems. And there you always make sure to build a suitable customer installation so that whatever is being stored can also be extinguished with good suppression systems, for example. Okay. And you've also founded this Dragonize brand. Could you maybe walk us through that? We've been talking about TST. I've also seen there's this Pamsern GmbH.

As far as I understood, that's a subsidiary which in turn holds Dragonize as a brand. And maybe you can add a bit about how that came about. Yes, that's exactly right. So TST is, so to speak, the parent, and Pamsern is a subsidiary. And within that subsidiary we have now founded this brand Dragonize – the charging network for logistics. We simply noticed in a great many conversations that this need is just there among logistics operators.

But we also noticed from our own experience how difficult it is to somehow build up charging infrastructure and accumulate all that know-how. And that was also a bit of the starting point for why we then arrived at this charging network concept, partly also through a conversation with another logistics operator. So a great many people came to us and asked, when we opened: Can I come and charge at your place? And for us that was pretty clear.

We were already able to say directly at that point: come to our charger the next day, because we had already tested that beforehand with two other logistics operators who had already come to us, and where we had essentially also checked whether the billing systems and everything worked. And at the same time they told us that their charging infrastructure was sitting idle because their vehicles were out on the road with us. And then we said, how silly is that. And from that, this idea grew a little bit that you could offer a charging network.

So on the one hand, that our charging infrastructure can be used by others, but also the other way around: we go to other sites, because we operate nationwide just the same. Otherwise we would be completely dependent on public charging infrastructure. And this way we can simply – let's say – make much better use of all the charging infrastructure that logistics operators are also building. That of course also includes things like economic viability. And we also had to learn from our own experience when we used the public network when we started out.

In 2024 that was of course still a bit different. Nevertheless, it's still far from where it needs to be. You can find charging infrastructure for trucks, by now also reasonably well along the motorways, but nowhere near what we actually need. And yet because a great deal of charging infrastructure is already being built at depot and warehouse sites right now –

we believe that through this kind of opening-up, everyone can really benefit – including smaller hauliers who may only be able to afford one vehicle because the acquisition costs are so high, but who then don't also have to invest additionally in charging infrastructure; instead they can join the charging network and still get affordable rates – without having to talk about volumes or anything like that. Interesting.

And there's the Elektro-Trucker, who always shows in his videos how he drives through Germany and also pulls up to public charging stations that were originally designed more for passenger cars – at least initially. Is that something that would actually be realistic for you? Also because there are already quite a few HPC fast chargers. But how do you look at the topic? Is that something that works for a few early-adopter trucks and then stops working once it scales? Well, you also have to see it this way: we've done it too, and we still do it when –

when the need is simply there and we have no other option to go anywhere else. The passenger-car setups often require you to unhitch the trailer. That's something we obviously want to avoid in logistics. Nevertheless, as I said, we do go there. You can use them in any case. But I simply think: right now the truck has a faster ramp-up curve. That means we actually need infrastructure much faster than is the case for passenger cars. The passenger-car curve is rising considerably more slowly.

And if you now imagine that we could already achieve full utilisation of those chargers through passenger cars, I think there will at some point also be restrictions meaning trucks can no longer go there at all. That means we're currently in a bit of a grey zone where we essentially use whatever is possible and make full use of it – just like Tobi does. But now the point is that we quickly help ourselves.

And I believe the logistics sector in Germany is strong enough to do exactly that. Namely, that there are many mid-sized companies that are also keen to invest in infrastructure. There are already many pioneers moving forward who say, electric works, and who are also building. And even if we just network those together, we already come a good deal further. But as I said, often the reality is simply: the vehicles set off in the morning fully charged. Then they're on the road for at least nine hours. And maybe, if you're lucky, they come back once in between.

But they tend to be on the road. At the moment, however, my charging infrastructure is sitting idle and can be used – precisely by vehicles that are perhaps traveling from another location to us. And exactly because going there and back usually isn't possible without an intermediate charge, there should be a charging stop somewhere during a break. And that is simply what we want to offer with this. Is there any analysis of how many such depots exist, for example in Germany? Of course we also look at the NOW figures that are published.

Those are often the subsidized ones, where you first have to be a little careful about whether to share them or not. Nevertheless, we notice that the willingness to make something happen is simply there, and that applies to the new funding round as well. I think a great many more are coming. You always have to pay attention to the funding guidelines. With the new funding it is now considerably easier to share charging infrastructure. And of course we also look at statistics like that – how much is being built at depots.

There is a way of thinking – at least one I have heard frequently – that if you share, you become an energy supplier. Could we perhaps talk about that myth and look at what the legal situation actually is when a logistics company wants to share its charging infrastructure: exactly what you need for that and what you are and are not allowed to do? Well – you become a supplier when you sell energy to a third party who then uses that energy.

If, however, it is done at the charging infrastructure level, the party is then referred to as a final consumer – without going into too much detail here. That means I can sell energy at a charging infrastructure point and am not a supplier at that moment. Simply put: you are just not a supplier when you sell energy from a depot to third parties. Not to get out on thin ice here: the legal situation is constantly changing in this area as well. We hold the supplier license – in our case because we also sell our PV-generated electricity to our warehouses.

And that is why we obtained this supplier authorization. For charging infrastructure, I would be surprised if that were required. Yes, I believe that is also my understanding. I just wanted to make sure we clarified that. And the second point is: are there calibration law requirements when you start sharing? That absolutely has to be taken into account. The charging infrastructure must always comply with calibration law. And that inspection also has to take place every year.

Again – and also if a cable has been replaced, the charging cable itself, calibration law compliance must be restored as well. Those are definitely important things to consider, because otherwise you are not permitted to supply electricity to third parties. Yes, and that means the main driver behind this idea you now have with Dragonizes is primarily economic viability and availability, if I understand correctly.

Those are the two topics you are trying to address: being able to operate more cost-effectively and having more – or perhaps more reliable – charging points available. Exactly. Because we are building everything at the depot, we naturally have the opportunity to use the electricity we hopefully generate directly on the roof. And that of course has the advantage for every logistics operator that they can produce their own electricity, store it temporarily if needed, and draw it back out directly.

That naturally results in a different cost structure compared to always having to draw energy from the grid, where levies and electricity tax apply. Of course you have to factor in the investment costs, but normally this is something where you can say: PV-generated electricity can be produced more cheaply than what you buy from the grid. That naturally creates the opportunity for us to pass this electricity on at attractive prices, including at the charging infrastructure.

And that is different in the public network, for example. They often only have the option of drawing electricity from the grid. We simply have more room to work with on pricing. And the overriding goal within the network is always to be cheaper than public charging infrastructure. For antitrust reasons we do not dictate a price; rather, we name a reference price and say: that is the public electricity benchmark. But then every entrepreneur can set their own price – every entrepreneur in logistics.

The haulier is and remains the one who ultimately decides what electricity costs at their location. We will not take that over. We won't interfere with that either. Everyone should decide that for themselves, because I don't know the details either. It is often a mixed electricity supply that is sold at the charging point, made up of PV electricity and grid electricity. And I simply don't know how a given operator purchases their electricity, for instance. So there are a few parameters involved. Our goal is simply –

I would say, to make the know-how we have built up available to other logistics companies. And also – to be quite honest – to pass on the mistakes we have made and perhaps the lessons we have learned. And we benefit from it by having more charging infrastructure available to drive to. That was our most expensive price on the public network – though that was at the beginning, it has to be said, prices have changed – but we paid up to €1.00 per kWh.

For a truck, that's simply too much to make it economically viable, I would say. And when we use the public charging network – which still happens, because we can't manage entirely with the depot charging infrastructure – then you end up paying a lot of money, ultimately. That's why I think: okay, at the depots we need to make it more attractive, because we help each other out. We create utilization. We can also manage our peak loads on the grid better as a result.

And I think everyone benefits in that case. There's more charging infrastructure available to drive to, which helps everyone. I get a lower charging price – that helps everyone too. And if I'm offering charging infrastructure myself, I also get higher utilization on top of that. Perhaps, since we'll be talking more about prices, we could give our listeners who may not yet know that much about e-mobility a bit of context.

Maybe you could also share your experience. Roughly 1.5 to 2 kWh per kilometer for an electric truck – would you agree with that? I can of course always speak from our own experience. It depends a great deal on the driver, on how the vehicle is actually used, and on whether, for example, all the – there are now so many great driver assistance systems in the vehicles, which we also – the vehicles as well, for example.

You approach a roundabout and the vehicle automatically starts braking so that it enters the roundabout at the optimal speed. If I then keep steering against it the whole time, of course it's a different story – that's how the vehicle recuperates optimally. And it already eliminates unnecessarily consumed kWh right there. The driver factor is absolutely decisive in this whole setup. From our own experience now – we have a total of 31 vehicles in operation.

We've now managed a good 25% conversion as well. Thank you. And we're operating – it also varies a bit between summer and winter – but we're settling in at around 1.0 kWh to 1.2–1.3 kWh. 1.3 would be in winter. That's not bad at all. You can then logically put the cost per kilowatt-hour into perspective, if you've stated 0.10 € in the worst case.

How much – this is probably public, I'm not sure, otherwise feel free to say – how much do you charge at your charging stations, at your sites, for other logistics companies? We charge €0.20 net, exactly. And the intention is to keep it that fair. That's what this charging network is meant to stand for. It's just not supposed to be – you have to look at it – of course there's a massive investment behind it. Charging infrastructure is really expensive.

Compared to what you used to have – a petrol station where you could practically refuel your entire fleet – it's completely different with charging infrastructure. In terms of cost, it's very, very expensive. Then you need systems – all the software systems behind it, the backend, energy management, everything – that all comes on top. Maintenance plays a role too. All of that needs to be paid for, ultimately. The electricity itself also costs something, regardless of how you generate it, whether you buy it from the grid or generate it via a PV system.

And of course that all has to work out in every calculation. What we can say is that we arrive at that €0.20 figure at all our TST sites. Cool. And you already mentioned the solar systems you've installed. And then – I don't know whether battery storage systems are already in place or just planned – how much difference does that make? I think most people unfortunately tend to overestimate a little what a solar system can actually deliver in terms of the capacity that a truck needs.

But do you have any key figures, or a rough idea, of how much energy a solar system can provide for the trucks? Well, that's very hard to say, because of course there's always a warehouse underneath in the first place. And I think generating energy without supplying the warehouse makes no sense. And if the warehouse is also equipped with refrigeration units, then it will naturally consume quite a bit more in itself. And then it also depends somewhat on how much self-consumption coverage I want to achieve.

In other words, how much of the electricity from the PV system should end up being used in my warehouse. And you already have a key figure for that. And for the trucks, we now have very solid benchmarks for how much the trucks charge on average. That's partly because we've already opened it up and aren't only charging our own trucks. Our own trucks always charge the most. I think that's normal too. They're also there most frequently.

And by now there's an average number of third-party users, so that we can effectively state an overall average for how much a truck charges on average. And then, based on the utilization of the charging park – which everyone may plan differently, since I might have specific opening hours – you can also calculate accordingly. We have, for example, some warehouses where, at our main site in Worms, you can drive in 24 hours a day. But we also have a warehouse that is closed at night.

That means between, say, 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. nothing happens there, except that perhaps one or two of our own trucks are parked there. But there's no external, outside traffic. That naturally also results in different utilization levels at the charging stations. But if I have those average figures, I can estimate fairly well how much energy I'll need and how large my PV system has to be. And the battery storage system is ultimately always an additional optimizer on top of that.

We recently commissioned a 6-MWh storage system. Of course with a corresponding setup around it, quite a lot of PV. Even more charging infrastructure – everything has grown a bit larger. And this storage system is also planned for additional sites. Especially when we build it in combination with charging infrastructure, it makes total sense, simply to be able to use the PV power during hours with less sunlight.

Right, and have you taken advantage of the federal funding programs? Or can you reinvest a lot through your own cash flow? Or do you have to raise capital from banks to make the investments now? Exactly. Well, it's a mix, I would say. It's a bit of everything. There are sites where we are completely on our own. There are sites where we

make use of funding in that sense. The first charging infrastructure was also created through a funding program. But we have also installed other facilities – charging infrastructure in particular – during a period without funding, where we decided not to wait for the next funding round but to keep going anyway. Those sites were built regardless, but without any funding behind them.

And I think many logistics operators are also a bit worried about letting others onto their premises, or whether that is even legally feasible. What would you say to that? Do it. Definitely do it. We have had absolutely no – touch wood so far – no negative experience. It is received very positively, by other drivers as well. I am always talking to them myself, I always ask them how things are going. And you can tell pretty quickly whether they are satisfied or not.

Something you can never rule out – fortunately it hasn't happened to us yet – but at the sites we have built so far we have quite a lot of space. However, we will soon also have sites where space is more limited, where the charging infrastructure has to be accommodated in a narrow herringbone layout, because we have no other option for fitting the charging infrastructure onto an existing plot. And there you obviously have to think carefully about what happens

if, say, a piece of charging infrastructure accidentally gets damaged. What I would never ignore is simply installing camera systems. And we have also contractually agreed with every party that if damage occurs, it is naturally the responsibility of the carrier themselves, because charging infrastructure is made available not to be broken. And I also believe no one damages it deliberately – it is more likely accidental collision damage.

The contractual matters then have to be sorted out on an ad hoc basis with each interested party first, along with the pricing model. And then things can get started. Exactly. So there are several different ways to get in touch with us. We also have the website www.dragonize.de. That is our member portal.

There you can first of all browse a lot of information about charging infrastructure, and you can also digitally either schedule appointments with us or sign up as a member directly. That means you can download the membership agreement, review it thoroughly – all the terms and conditions are in there – and then sign it very conveniently, digitally. If you have additional questions, you can of course always reach out to us for a personal conversation at any time. And that is how you become a member and then gain access to

all the various depots of the other members straight away. Exactly. At that point, once you have also ordered and received your charging cards through the platform, you have the option to charge across the network using those cards, always at the rates set by the respective logistics operator. For our part, we can say we charge 0.2 euros. And that is how you can use the network right away. And of course there is a lot more to Dragonize itself, because charging as such is just one part. But many people are also unsure about

which routes they can cover with it, how much charging infrastructure they should install, and what happens with their energy on the back end. Even we at TST had to completely reposition ourselves when it comes to energy. In the past with the warehouses, energy consumption was always very consistent. With the charging infrastructure, it is sometimes unpredictable. Sometimes everything is fully occupied – trucks are parked everywhere wanting to charge – and you have completely different energy demands. That is why we have by now also completely restructured our energy procurement.

A lot of people have questions about that, including around system design: how large does a PV system need to be? And those are the things where we help as well. Right now the focus is very much on charging infrastructure. But we will be expanding that to cover precisely the areas of PV, battery storage and energy management, because for us it is a very, very sensible system that should be looked at together. Of course you can always add components later.

If you already have a PV system on your roof, you can obviously still add charging infrastructure – and the same applies in reverse. If I have the charging infrastructure first, I can just as easily add PV later. But within the overall system it is always better to look at everything together. The thing is, these logistics operators – their core business, and I always put it as plainly as this, is storing and transporting goods. And suddenly we come along and say: it's just not as simple as pulling an e-truck into the fleet. You have to think about what happens with your energy.

What peak load am I generating? What costs come out the other end? Those are all things I have to evaluate together. And that's where we said: okay, we've gathered experience and looked at a very wide range of service providers, including all these software systems and everything related to billing. I can share a great many things from my own experience about what that journey has brought. Yes, absolutely.

We'll also get to a few war stories in a moment, but just to get a complete picture of Dragonize: if I were a logistics company, I could on the one hand sign up for the membership we just outlined. Then I'd have these charging cards and could charge at all member companies. And I could also get consulting through you on how to electrify successfully in the first place, plus a range of other services that come along with that.

Whether that's installing charging stations, battery storage and solar systems, or energy procurement – all the surrounding services can also be found through you. Have I understood that correctly? Exactly. So within Dragonize – maybe I'll briefly explain what currently exists. PV is not included yet, storage isn't either. We can do it, but it's not yet embedded in the structure the way charging infrastructure is. For charging infrastructure, we support the entire value chain. It starts with:

Most of the time someone wants to acquire an electric truck, or they have a trial vehicle and would like to charge it with us briefly. So we also help with that – if there are any test vehicles and someone wants to charge in the network at short notice, we can handle that too. Then there's the construction of the charging infrastructure, where we provide advisory support, which you automatically receive as a member of the network. That means we don't charge anything extra for that. We have a qualified pool of service providers standing behind us.

When someone decides to build out charging infrastructure: we have looked at 32 service providers across Germany and really grilled them – sometimes with a great many questions – in order to qualify them, because we've experienced ourselves that it can sometimes still be difficult, even when there's a service provider offering planning and installation, and that the technical design behind it isn't always what we need for trucks.

That means we've qualified the service providers very specifically on that point. But then, if someone decides they want to build, the contract is between the service provider and the logistics company – we're not part of that. We only refer onwards. We refer to our qualified pool. And we already look at the specifics we've assessed at the logistics company beforehand. Which service provider fits this particular setup best?

So am I perhaps only operating locally, or am I active nationwide or even across Europe? Or do I specifically want a particular charging station hardware? We look at all of that and then recommend a service provider from our pool, so that becomes the first step toward building. We also accompany the entire construction process, meaning we at least review the milestones together. We don't do the project management ourselves – we can offer that as well, but that's a separate matter. However, we can.

We at least take a look at the milestones – the big things: is everything on track, does something need to be corrected somewhere? So that we're also providing support there. Then it's about getting the whole thing into operation. And that sometimes sounds easier than it is. You need to be able to clearly see which vehicle is charging and how much energy it's drawing. Logistics companies need that because the vehicle is the asset. I essentially have to see how much energy is going into each vehicle and then, in turn, how much that ultimately costs. So we looked into that as well.

And we even tested it in a live system at our own location. For example, we tested three different backend systems that record these charging processes. We looked at which one then pairs best with the billing side. Because in logistics – our drivers don't carry credit cards – you ultimately need a proper billing solution that is also vehicle-based in terms of how it's invoiced,

ideally not just across one site but potentially across multiple sites, so that the administrative burden doesn't increase on the back end. And then we come to a really, really important part: the entire energy management behind it. That has to work too. And above all, the systems have to be compatible with one another. So I have to look at:

Do the other systems I may already have running from the past now work with the system we need for trucks in order to record all these charging infrastructure processes? We always refer to this as the glue of the whole thing – that always sounds easier than it turns out to be. You think: well, it all works, I'll just pick some system. From experience, I can say: not everything works. And there are a great many hurdles that you simply don't see coming in advance.

And we have already tested all of them. For example, we took three systems that we then tested live in operation. That means we repeatedly rolled out the system on a few chargers and sent our drivers there – as guinea pigs, so to speak – and had them do the testing. We gathered an enormous amount of experience from that and were also able to say afterwards: which system doesn't work in this truck world? And which systems do work in this truck world?

And which systems also manage to produce clean billing afterwards, including in a multi-client setup, which is what we need? Those are all things we have already taken into account and incorporated. We bring a reservation system with us, where you can also make reservations. At the moment it is of course a static reservation. But there too we hope that at some point the providers will be ready to also deliver a dynamic reservation. What is the difference? The static reservation works like this:

I say the vehicle arrives at 12:00 and charges until 13:00, because the driver is simply supposed to take his break during that time. And according to the calculation, the driver should be at that location at that point. That is the static reservation. Meaning I state very firmly: my reservation window is at such and such a time. Dynamic means: the driver gets caught in traffic and arrives maybe half an hour later, or he gets through more easily and arrives maybe half an hour earlier. That would then be the dynamic element.

But I have to link that to a telematics system that ultimately also delivers the data – position data – and also confirms that the driver has actually arrived. Of course that also means: I need to check how many are perhaps simultaneously at other charging points. How do I need to redistribute the power? Is there even enough power available? Or do I perhaps need to reroute him to a location that is maybe just one kilometre further away, because the energy is still available there? And those are all the kinds of things involved.

So I think, especially when it comes to reservations, there is still a huge amount of room for improvement. We are glad that we can get started right now with a static reservation. And that is already included in this network. Meaning if I am in the network and also want to use this reservation feature, there is the option to do so. I just need to have my vehicle unlocked for this reservation. Exactly. And.

We also have an AI system running in the background, for example, which regularly checks the chargers to see whether any errors have occurred, simply to ensure the reliability of the charger. And then in the next step we are already – and this goes hand in hand – so this AI system with the continuous monitoring of the charger goes hand in hand with the service side, because now we are moving into the aftermarket, so to speak, with the service.

There too we have found service providers that are truck-specific and also, at a price point where we can say, okay, they are affordable for now and fit our operating model. Because I also have to consider: if I only have, say, two chargers installed and one of them goes down, but I maybe have four trucks in operation or even more, or more are being added, then at some point that one remaining charger is no longer sufficient. That means I also need the opportunity to get that charger repaired fairly quickly, but of course.

The pricing also has to align so that it all fits together. But the worst thing would be if a charger goes down and as a result the schedule gets delayed downstream. That is the worst thing in logistics. And that is precisely why the service side is also incredibly important to us. There too we have found service providers with whom we were able to agree on, let's say, good service level agreements – meaning: how quickly someone arrives – and also, let's say, that this fits the logistical truck concept.

That was a bit tricky. Up to that point we handle the coordination of appointments; after that, everything in terms of costs and so on is of course the responsibility of the logistics operator who then runs the charging infrastructure. But that is also part of it. And that is essentially – we always call it this – we map the entire value chain of this whole construct. Exactly. We have the member portal. That is also set up like a knowledge wiki platform.

A big part of that is also about enabling logistics operators to understand charging infrastructure or to understand this whole construct. And of course the billing – I already briefly touched on it – but billing of course also belongs in this overall construct, and it is specifically tailored to logistics. Wow, yes, I think you have explained quite well just now everything that is involved. And what comes to my mind spontaneously is: your core business is actually getting goods from A to B.

And everything you have just described goes far beyond that. How did you actually make the decision back then to say: okay, now we are going down this path. We are now going to build up this additional line of business and core expertise, as you also said. Many logistics operators may not even be aware of how significant that cultural shift is. When you commit to electric mobility, energy consumption suddenly becomes a very, very important component that you can also control. With diesel you had no real lever. And now with electricity.

Suddenly so many topics come into play. How was it for you? And I think, at least off the top of my head, I don't know anyone else who has taken a path like yours – really not just claiming the topic for yourselves and building up that know-how, but even offering it to third parties as well. Yes, exactly. A lot of factors came together there. Of course, it was our own experience that we first had with public charging stations.

I mentioned briefly earlier that it can sometimes be difficult to get to a passenger-car charging point, or it's too expensive. I rode along myself once, and we then unhitched in a residential area at night. That's quite a situation when it takes you around 20 extra minutes to get home at night. None of that is pleasant. And those are issues that we still pass on to the driver right now, as part of the whole picture. And what's needed there, I'd say, is understanding.

that he might then also say: "Hey, no, I really don't want it like that. Please make sure we create a framework where it actually works." And those were our own experiences that we took away, where we said: Okay, we need to improve this. We need more of our own charging infrastructure. That was already – I'd say – yes, the strategic direction was already that at our depots, at least along our route – we operate around Hamburg, Bremen, Rhine-Ruhr, and then down to Worms – we have something like a.

We always call it the western banana. We had already looked at which sites we could strategically equip with charging infrastructure so that we could cover that route. And that was the strategic direction for our own charging parks, essentially. But then we talked to a lot of people who were already deploying electric trucks, and asked about their experiences. And they all kept saying: public charging is too expensive. Reliability – that was an issue for us too.

He drove up to the charging infrastructure himself, and when it doesn't work at night, that's just the situation. That means we need reliable charging infrastructure. We also believe we can monitor it better than, let's say, in the public space, because we are simply – we are responsible for it. We want our transports to run. And those are the different starting points where we simply say: Okay, I do believe this can work. And many said they still needed charging infrastructure.

I can come to you to charge. And no matter who we talked to, the same phrases kept coming up: reliability, too few charging solutions, too expensive. I have to unhitch somehow, or I have a through-traffic restriction. Those were the points where we then said: Okay, we could actually open up our infrastructure. And if we can convince others to open up their infrastructure too, then the logistics industry can actually help itself. There are so many logistics companies or small freight forwarders or whatever you want to call them.

And if we, as an industry so to speak, stick closer together and say: Okay, we'd rather help each other within the industry than go somewhere else, that's of course much better. From that concept. And that was a bit of the starting point – to become even more independent, not to be dependent on some third party, but to stay within this sector, within this industry. And do you also see the ramp-up coming now? The EU has targets – 35%, I believe.

Of trucks sold on average by 2030. Right now we're at roughly single-digit percentages. How do you look at this ramp-up? Is it coming that quickly? Faster? Slower? I believe it will come and that we will reach the targets. Why do I believe that? I see it in our own company. I already mentioned we're at 25%. There are other examples in the market that

are deploying their trucks just as successfully as we are, and don't see any showstoppers there either – they're not saying: Okay, I can only drive this route or only do that. I believe that overall it will get much, much better. We demonstrate it. We lead by example. We have good examples. We can prove it works. We can also prove that the whole thing can be operated economically. There are a few parameters you naturally have to take into account, but electric trucks can be operated economically. And when you factor all of that in,

it's a wonderful concept with electric. And I believe we need to spread these positive examples far more widely. Then even more people will dare to take the step. Funding programs like the one that existed help enormously, also to – let's say – reach those who perhaps didn't dare to jump in during the first round, but who now say: Yes, I'd like to take a look at this, and maybe approach it gradually with one, two, or three vehicles first. I've also had a lot of conversations recently with people who said they took part in that funding call.

And they now have a few test vehicles from it. And I've also already run a test with a vehicle that was made available to me by the truck manufacturer. And it works. And I already know now that I'm going to convert my entire fleet. And those were always around 100 vehicles in the conversations I had. And that's what it takes. And that's also what it is.

I think if we show each other that it works – or someone comes by and can perhaps talk to drivers, or you see positive examples on social media channels – that's what it takes. And especially these tests, these test drives where you can have a vehicle for three days: that's great, because it convinces people. And that's exactly how we did it. We first took vehicles on a trial basis and looked at which range works for us.

We also had vehicles where we said: okay, the range isn't quite there yet. We need those 500 kilometres. But now we manage perfectly fine with them. And I always say: you don't need more than 500 kilometres. Those 500 to 600 kilometres that are now coming into range – by that point the driver takes his break, the 4.5 hours, exactly as required. And then I just charge again. And for that I only need one charging location. And those charging locations are being built right now. And if they emerge within a network, all the better.

Not necessarily because it's entertaining, but more in the sense of: you've learned a lot from mistakes that others shouldn't repeat. What were some war stories? If you want to share one or two that really kept you up at night, where you'd say: okay, these were my top issues, where I thought: oh no. The first one: there's a site that we built in a somewhat piecemeal way. Meaning, we didn't consistently use one service provider throughout – instead, we somehow had the civil engineering done by the

contractor who always does that. Or by an electrician who always does that. I would advise against that. It's much better to have an overall concept. A comprehensive plan and also a single overall contract. But again, a word of warning here. I've experienced it myself. And that's actually my second story. So: it's better to contract everything together. I once did a service provider comparison for one site. I approached seven different service providers. I gave them all the same technical setup.

I said there should be this many and that many charging points, there should be cooled cables. I set out a very large number of specifications. And what came out of it was that I genuinely ended up with seven completely different plans. From cable cross-sections to – I don't know – completely different layouts, all the way through to the price, which is also not entirely negligible, and with really significant differences. So, I always use a fictional number, but for the same request

I would have had to pay 500,000 euros in one case, and for the – as I said – identical request from another provider, one million euros. And for me that makes an enormous difference. Also, the logistics operator who agrees to build the infrastructure there genuinely has the will to make it happen, I believe. But it has to be economically viable somewhere. And now I'll add one more thing: if I'm not very familiar with the subject and maybe only get one quote,

and maybe I get the most expensive quote, which might also have the wrong cables installed – how am I supposed to figure that out as a logistics operator if I simply don't have that know-how and am not familiar with the subject at all? It's not my core business. And that's exactly where we come in and say: hey, we'll support you with that. But it's also where you can potentially lose the most money, because if the charging infrastructure doesn't work afterwards or doesn't deliver the required performance, nobody benefits – the vehicle just sits there.

And that's probably the worst case that can happen. Yes, absolutely. And on that note – the vehicle sitting idle. You also mentioned that many people order the vehicles but then don't think backwards from the overall concept. One thing I've learned a lot about is that many people make the mistake of not addressing the grid connection. Do you have a few more

anecdotes on the topic of how to secure sufficient capacity at the site from the grid operators so that the vehicles can actually be charged? Because most logistics operators, as you said, haven't needed that much power on-site before. In the past they also didn't have a large medium-voltage connection – or rather very limited capacity – so the truck that suddenly shows up can't be charged. Yes, unfortunately that happens. Luckily not to us yet.

We have had to carry out grid expansion work at many sites. I would always recommend – and this is also something that all the service providers we have selected can cover. That means, based on the calculations you then have, you can of course also incorporate a battery storage system, which has a positive effect on the grid connection. That's another reason for this overall approach – so that exactly these kinds of things are taken into account.

If, for example, you can't get enough power at the grid connection point, how can you deal with that differently? And the service providers we have qualified all cover that as well. That means they would also take over ensuring that a grid connection is established, for example. And that's of course always the first thing that needs to be done. So really, as soon as you start thinking about it: I'd like to set up charging infrastructure for trucks. Passenger cars are not quite as critical as trucks.

But as soon as the first idea comes along, you should immediately look into the grid connection. And then – this podcast is also very much about, as the name suggests, smart charging and intelligent charging. How do you look at the topic? We've already covered some aspects, of course: trying to optimise with solar systems and then with battery storage. But if you really want to approach it in a complex way, you'd already say at that point: Okay, now a grid connection – how much do I actually need?

How much battery storage do I need from the start? If I then have a roadmap of electric trucks in my fleet that, in the target scenario, will require a certain amount of power and energy over time – and then optimise energy procurement accordingly, all the way through to bidirectional charging. I've just mentioned a lot of topics. Now I'll let you take over. Exactly. That was a lot of topics at once. I'd like to start briefly with the driver.

The driver's initial assumption is that what's stated on the data sheet is also what comes out of the vehicle. That's very important. Which is why I would first design things in such a way that I actually manage to make the full amount of energy available. That is certainly not yet the final expansion stage. What I have in mind is something that – I mentioned reservations earlier – also goes in a more dynamic direction. Now I'm jumping quite far ahead. But from the current state to – where do we want to go? The–

If we know when the vehicle is arriving – and also if the information is shared: what is the next trip? And then say: Okay, factor in the vehicle's own specifications as well, because we also have vehicles on the market that can only charge at 240 kW and not always 400 kW or whatever else is coming. We'll see. But there are smaller ones and there are larger ones. And then you look: Okay, what can the vehicle actually handle? And then, based on that route planning, also take the next charging stop into account: How low is the vehicle's charge? What is the actual battery status?

How much energy do I actually need to get to the next discharge point? And if we're lucky and there's also charging infrastructure there, then that would of course be the ideal scenario. But then I could naturally only provide the optimal amount of energy. That means, if I additionally have the information on top of that: is the driver currently taking a break or not? Being able to use that break time and then say: Okay, he might only need enough for the next 200 kilometres. But he's still half full. He might only need, I don't know, another 10% charge.

I can then of course manage that very well over 45 minutes by having him charge slowly, rather than – let's say – topping him up ad hoc at 400 kW. And that's my vision for the future. We know this, of course. We come from that world right now. We drive to the petrol station and simply fill our car completely – always with diesel. And we need to move away from that mindset. We can charge very differently. We can distribute the vehicle's charging in a completely different way – and really based on the battery state, the next route, and the break times.

I believe there's still a lot of room for improvement there and for getting even smarter. I think it's good where we are now – that we're getting started at all, even if it's not yet that smart and not yet that dynamic – but that there is simply already movement in that direction. And if I also have multiple vehicles where I know, for example: some need less energy and some need more. Then of course I don't need–

Let's say, if I now have four chargers at 400 kW each, I might not need all 1,600 kW at once, but perhaps only 800 kW at that moment. And maybe I can also add a battery storage system that then says: Okay, I'll buffer the peak load once more and provide, say, another 300 kW from the battery storage. And those are the kinds of things that matter to me. And you can see how this overall construct needs to work together – everything has to interlock. All systems. I always call it–

The interfaces need to work. I always say: they need to be able to talk to each other. If that doesn't work, or if there's a snag somewhere, the overall system is already somewhat disrupted at that point. But exactly. And to understand your target vision again: these requirements of the vehicle – as you just outlined, or of the driver –, what systems need to provide that information? Are we talking about telematics? That is, of course, I would think, the gold standard. But also: a freight forwarder usually has a TMS. Those are then–

– that as well, and then as dynamically as possible, as dynamic as you said. And does the driver also need to communicate his needs in some way, so that you really have a holistic picture of the driver's or vehicle's requirements? I think the driver himself doesn't need to communicate anything – he's actually the one who needs to be provided with the information. It would be like: he wants to charge at our site in Worms. And then the system would say, for example: he doesn't need to charge much at all.

So we signal to him and say: Okay, he only needs to charge a little. And he should receive that information so that he doesn't think: Okay, something's wrong with the charging point, or something – the systems aren't working. And if that goes through the truck telematics system – they always have nice screens in the cab too –, if that could of course be reflected back there, or also via the phone: I think there are all kinds of possibilities. Let's see who at some point comes up with clever ideas and ultimately puts them into practice.

But I think it would also be good for the driver to get more information there. Right now, all they ever see is: okay, I'm at the charging point, it's a 400 kW unit, and I'm getting less power. But they don't know that perhaps the battery is already throttling down because it's at 90% or whatever. And certainly not once you start moving into the e-truck space. There are so many things there where you'd say: okay, you need to brief the driver on that beforehand.

For a while, for example, we also tried – for those who simply can't charge as fast due to the vehicle's technology – we kept telling the dispatcher: please only send them to charging points x and y, because the other points could handle much more. But the vehicle can't accept more. That means no matter what – even if that vehicle goes to the high-power charger – it still won't receive more energy. That was, for example, really difficult to communicate. And I think that's simply something where you have to engage with the driver in a different way.

And what are you already doing today in terms of intelligent energy management? Is it the case that you're, for example, cutting peak loads, as you mentioned? Or is that still on the roadmap? What's the current status, so to speak, and what's on the roadmap in terms of optimisations you're targeting? Well, I think I've more or less already described the roadmap in that context. So regarding energy as well: the goal is always, of course, when I connect a charging infrastructure –

And in our case, they tend not to be small – there are quite a lot of charging points. And we now consistently design them for 400 kW. But that also means, at maximum: we design the entire system that way, the tariff structure is based on it, and so on – all the cabling – so that everything could run at full load. Then I have an enormous peak load. And it's actually the case that peak load capping is incredibly important, because that's where costs can spiral quickly. So you really say: okay, the system already throttles things down to some extent.

Everything that goes beyond that can come from PV, can come from something else. But if the PV isn't there – and that's especially the case in the winter months – and if I also don't have a battery storage system, then the power at the charging points simply gets reduced. That's completely normal. That's definitely something we still need to optimise on our end. But we're currently working on it. We should manage that by winter, so that we then don't get complaints, but can actually deliver the power even then.

There are a few tricks you can still apply in the energy industry. But it gets very technical now. And what kind of cost-saving potential do you have from peak loads alone – so that a listener gets a sense of how relevant this is? Well, you can work it out fairly easily, I'd say, and every additional 100 kW can already make an incredible difference. I mean, we're talking about five-figure amounts that you pay over the course of a year.

If you also have the worst-case scenario and perhaps commission a charging infrastructure in November and immediately run it at full load. Let's say I simply connect one 400 kW charger and then charge over the last two months. But then I have to pay for that peak load for my entire year, because I generated it in November. And those are costs that no logistics operator has factored in. Either you know that in advance and throttle things down beforehand, or you have to factor it in – for example, into the electricity cost per charge as well.

Into the electricity dispensing cost. That amounts to – I'd say for a 400 kW charging point – a five-figure sum per year. You want to avoid that if at all possible. And on the topic of peak loads – this may also be useful for those who aren't deeply involved in the energy sector – those are the grid fees. And you can also get an electricity contract from your energy supplier independently of that. There are spot tariffs available. I don't know whether you or your team also look into how to

also try, with the energy supplier, to consume electricity at certain times for instance. I believe there are already over 1,000 negative-price hours per year. If you approach that smartly, there are also price differences that occur every 15 minutes. Exactly, that's possible, but all of that has to be managed as well. That means I need someone again who handles that. The energy industry is an incredibly complex system. Yes, maybe just to come back briefly to peak loads.

I don't know whether everyone is familiar with it in that level of detail. Peak load is simply the simultaneous use of electricity. I always explain it with light bulbs: if I screw in one light bulb, I have 10 watts. And if I screw in 30, I have correspondingly more. And that's this simultaneity that I need in order to have the electricity made available to me. And this simultaneity – the more of it I want – scales quickly with charging infrastructure.

the more the energy supplier ultimately gets compensated for the whole thing, because they have to provide me with more simultaneity – that is, more energy at the same time. And that's something that alone – let's say a standard warehouse has somewhere between 50 and 100 kW. And now just look at the ratio: if I put a charging infrastructure next to it, I have a single charging point at 400 kW. Yes, exactly. And I think that ratio isn't clear to many people at all. And that's something you need to keep in mind.

And electricity costs are something that many people don't factor in. And sure, those negative-price hours and the spot price do make a difference. But behind that I need solid portfolio management. I have to forecast a lot: how much electricity do I actually need? Because if I need electricity at short notice, it gets expensive again. I basically have to plan ahead and then say: okay, I'll need roughly this much. And if there are small deviations, I can cover those short-term via the spot market. Otherwise it's more of a...

Well, at least on a daily basis, so that I have to plan at least one day ahead. So you have fixed electricity procurement as well. We used to have completely fixed procurement. And we've now switched that entirely. There's a certain portion we still cover through, let's say, constant products, and the rest we cover through variable products. I see. And you also mentioned that you've become an energy supplier. Does that mean you're partly trading on the electricity market yourselves, or is that not the case?

That would be the next level. No, we're not jumping five steps forward or climbing five levels at once - we're taking two steps up for now. And that means we're switching from a tranche model to a corresponding portfolio that we then also manage ourselves. We're currently in the middle of making that transition. And yes, maybe trading will come at some point down the line.

Exactly. To be able to cover that better, and also to make better use of those negative-price hours, battery storage is again very helpful there. Exactly, but it's also still an additional investment that you have to factor in. Yes, and last but not least, this is the most challenging topic. But since you're so innovation-driven, maybe it'll come sooner than expected - I mean the topic of bidirectional charging. In my view, people talk about it far more in the context of private passenger car home charging.

But there isn't as much power and energy available there, as we've just discussed - whereas the real potential lies elsewhere. Do you see this topic coming soon for you? Or have you really pushed it far down the road? And if so, why? Well, I'm watching it very closely, I have to say. At the current point in time, I have a clear opinion on it. And that is: right now it's not interesting for us. Why? To make the truck - the electric truck - economically viable, we had to add a second shift.

That means it runs during the day and it also runs at night. And in between, it has its time windows where it simply charges, and charges as fully as possible or as much as it can. Sometimes it has an hour longer to stand, sometimes an hour less. That's why I say it doesn't fit our current setup, because when it's parked, it needs the charge. Right now we have one or two trucks that genuinely stand for hours and could potentially feed energy back. But it's also the case that our trucks tend to come back fairly empty, which makes me say:

Okay, there's not much left to draw from. And of course you have to look at all of that together. If I have a fleet that I operate on a single-shift basis, and the vehicles are parked at night or also during the day - for a long time - and let's say many vehicles, or at least a large share of my fleet, are available, then I find the concept totally sensible. And you can certainly extract more energy from a truck than from passenger cars. But now there's also this: PV isn't curtailed for no reason.

It's curtailed because otherwise there's a risk of potential grid overload. That naturally also has to be managed from the energy grid side: how much energy can actually be drawn, and how much can be fed into the grid? Those are all still components where I'd say, yes, you need to think that through again. And perhaps passenger cars too - which of course have much smaller battery capacities, but which in total stand for much, much longer during the day -

Well, how often - I don't know if you have a car, but when I think about how much my car just sits there: it sits for quite a long time. People say you drive it for about one hour out of 24. Maybe the sheer number of vehicles with smaller batteries could also be helpful in that regard. And of course you might also be able to control it more easily. I'm not sure, but for us as a model right now, it doesn't apply. And I've also spoken about this with a number of OEMs - on the truck side.

And they agreed with me pretty quickly when I said: okay, we operate two shifts and we charge in between. And they said: okay, then the use case doesn't make sense for you in that scenario. And that's genuinely the case. Overall, I think it's great. We're thinking ahead on this too. We always factor in things like that. It's the same as the fact that we no longer need charging cards, chips, or anything like that - everything runs automatically. Things like that are taken into account as well, meaning you simply keep an eye on current trends. What's happening in the market?

Where is it heading? Ultimately, it should of course also become much simpler for the driver and the user. And if all of that could happen automatically, in some way or another, and then perhaps combined with some kind of smart charging approach where I also know: okay, this vehicle only needs, say, 40% in the battery to reach its next stop - then you can of course play around with bidirectional charging in a very different way. So yes, I do believe it will come at some point. But right now, not for us.

Though I always say: technology is great, but it's still in its infancy. I mean, how long has this technology even existed? We had the combustion engine for ages – I think there's still a lot more to come. And of course there are many additional services around it that we perhaps haven't even considered yet. Yes, absolutely. What I find exciting – and I agree with you on many points – is that passenger cars may not be as economically driven as the logistics industry, which is why the push there is even faster.

You can still make money with a truck. And I always think strongly in terms of different use cases. There's local distribution traffic, there's long-haul traffic, and depending on how the truck is used – one shift, two shifts – there's enough flexibility to optimise. And then you start optimising in one direction first: delaying the charging, or making it slower or faster, and then all the way through to bidirectional charging.

And I think, maybe even for you, it could be possible to try out certain things within certain small time windows. But also, as you say, bidirectionality is not yet as mature as some of the other things one might do. Step by step. I think we're approaching the finish line. Maybe you'd like to share something with our listeners – something you're looking for, or how people can get in touch with you.

Exactly. You can definitely – I already mentioned it earlier – go directly to the charging network at www.dragonize.de. There you can also book appointments directly, exchange ideas with the team, and learn everything about the entire network. And otherwise, I would say to anyone who is currently considering whether to get into e-mobility in the truck segment: feel free to reach out, seek the exchange, and then just go for it. I think you can't go wrong – we were also sceptical at the beginning and are now seeing how well it works. Yes, you're doing a lot of things right. And above all, you're doing it with enthusiasm. I really like that.

With that in mind, continued success to you, and thank you for the conversation. What I take away from this conversation: the energy consumption of an electric truck is better than many people expect. Kathrin's fleet is settling in at around 1.3 kWh per kilometre. And the biggest lever there is the driver, because the driver assistance systems can only recuperate cleanly if you let them do their job. But what I found even more important was her experience with planning.

For one site, she approached service providers with exactly the same technical setup and received seven completely different plans in return – ranging from cable cross-sections to price. Anyone who isn't familiar with the subject simply won't recognise an expensive or technically incorrect offer. Her recommendation is therefore to commission everything from a single source, with people who have done it before. And then there's the peak load: anyone who commissions a 400 kW charger under full load in November will be paying for that peak for the entire year.

And those are five-figure euro amounts – a cost block that hardly anyone in logistics has accounted for until now. Kathrin's advice to everyone who is still hesitating: seek out the exchange and then just go ahead and do it.

Episode notes

Die eigenen E-LKW sind mindestens neun Stunden am Stück unterwegs, und genau in dieser Zeit steht der teure Ladepark am Depot leer. Katrin Herda, bei der TST Gruppe verantwortlich für Ladeinfrastruktur, Photovoltaik, Batteriespeicher und Energiemanagement, hat daraus ein Ladenetz gemacht: Die Logistiker öffnen ihre Depots füreinander, statt weiter auf das öffentliche Netz zu warten. Die TST Gruppe ist ein eigentümergeführtes Familienunternehmen, seit 36 Jahren am Markt, gestartet mit einem einzigen LKW und heute bei 85 Standorten, 120 Fahrzeugen und über einer Million Quadratmeter Lagerfläche, spezialisiert auf Pharma und Chemie. 31 Fahrzeuge fahren bereits elektrisch, rund ein Viertel des Fuhrparks, mit einem Verbrauch zwischen 1,0 und 1,3 Kilowattstunden pro Kilometer je nach Jahreszeit, und Katrin benennt den Fahrer als den größten einzelnen Hebel dabei. Öffentlich hat TST zeitweise bis zu 81 Cent pro Kilowattstunde bezahlt, am eigenen Depot sind es 32 Cent netto. Genau daraus ist Dragonize entstanden, das Ladenetz der Logistiker: Die eigenen Trucks sind mindestens neun Stunden unterwegs, in dieser Zeit steht der teure Ladepark leer, und andere Spediteure suchen genau dann eine verlässliche Säule. Dahinter hängt deutlich mehr als eine Ladesäule. Katrin erklärt, warum das Teilen von Strom an der Ladeinfrastruktur einen Logistiker nicht automatisch zum Energieversorger macht, was die Eichrechtskonformität dabei verlangt, und warum sie sieben Dienstleistern dasselbe technische Setup vorgelegt und sieben unterschiedliche Planungen zurückbekommen hat, von den Kabelquerschnitten bis zum Preis. Sie rechnet die Lastspitze vor, die kaum jemand einkalkuliert: Wer eine Säule mit 400 Kilowatt im November unter Volllast in Betrieb nimmt, zahlt diese Spitze für das gesamte Jahr, und zwar fünfstellig. Dazu kommen ein frisch in Betrieb genommener Batteriespeicher mit 6 Megawatt, die Umstellung der Energiebeschaffung von einem festen Tranchenmodell auf ein gemanagtes Portfolio, der Unterschied zwischen statischer und dynamischer Reservierung, und ihre klare Position zum bidirektionalen Laden: Bei zweischichtigem Betrieb fehlt schlicht die Standzeit, und Truck OEMs haben ihr das bestätigt. Eine Folge darüber, wie eine Branche sich selbst hilft, statt auf Infrastruktur zu warten, und darüber, was ein Logistiker wissen muss, bevor der erste E-LKW im Hof steht.