S2 Ep. 3: Matteo Oberto - Co-Founder & CEO at JUNA | Scaling Electric Trucking Through Utilization-Driven Models

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things, energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

Today's episode is about the hard reality of electrifying road freight. It's not a single technology switch, it's a full operating system change, vehicles, charging access, routes, utilization and financing, where the weakest link determines whether the business case holds. My guest is Matteo, CEO of Juna. He shares his journey from early roles with BCG in London into scaling work in logistics, most notably at Senda, and how that experience shaped a very pragmatic view. If you want electric trucks to scale, the solution has to work for the

carriers who actually move most of Europe's freight, and many dimensions play a role. We then unpack what June is building in Y, reducing risks for fleets. Structuring viable commercial models and making charging a workable reality across depot charging, public charging, and the emerging in between. World of semi-public shared infrastructure. If you care about e-chucks beyond pilots, this conversation is a blueprint for what needs to click. Let's go. Yeah, hello Matteo, nice to have you here. How are you today? Hi and thank you for having me

I'm very excited to be here and also to have this discussion together. Great, so first, before we move into more detailed topics about Juna, etc. can you introduce yourself? Well, what's your background so that people get a feel of who Matteo is? Yeah, very happy to do so. So, my name is Matteo, I'm originally Italian. Um, I grew up in a city called Torino, er near the Alps. Uh, my background, let's say from an educational standpoint is business management. I studied, uh, economics, uh, in my

bachelor, uh, in Turin, and then I moved on, uh, to study business management in Copenhagen, uh, in Denmark. After that, let's say I moved into the professional world, I started from consulting, then ended up in startups and finally at Juna. Happy to dive a bit more into that, but that's, let's say business management and now a bit more entrepreneurship is my background. OK, and which were the first startups you were or the first career path you took after your studies, yeah? Yeah, so I actually started

in London. I started at Vodafone, so a telecommunication company. Uh, back then after the master's degree, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I started a graduate program, which is the typical cross-functional program where every 6 months you basically do something different. Um, while at Vodafone I figured it out, I wanted to be a bit more involved into the, let's say, call it a strategy, um, areas of companies. And hence I then moved on to start in consulting. I joined a strategic consulting

firm called the Boston Consulting Group, where then I ended up spending 4.5 years. What I did in BCG was mostly working in the private equity practice, so basically spending time with private equity funds, helping them on two things, either to decide whether a company is a good asset to to buy or to sell, so the so-called commercial due diligences, or helping them once they have actually bought a company, uh, understanding what to do with that company. So the typical transformation or strategic blueprints where they try

to accelerate the growth of of their companies. At some point though, I was a bit, if you want, tired of the consulting environment, mostly because I actually had the feeling, as many people who do consulting at some point have, that my responsibilities were ending when the fund was starting, which is basically the implementation. And hence I was just wondering like what else or what could I, you know, do in my career to be a bit more close to implementation to see the actual result of my

thinking of my work, and that is when I started thinking the startup ecosystem could have been a very interesting one for me. Mostly because working on a small, medium, let's say uh environment but still very much dynamic, would have given me the chance to really see the the result of my work, to, to build an impact, but also to remain in a very dynamic, energetic, fast pacing environment. At that point, I basically came across the center, uh, back then it was already in their scale up

phase, not really an early stage startup. We're talking which year? So now we're talking um 2021, um, so basically, what, 4.5 years ago. Um, and back then I had the first conversation with the founding team at Sender. They were looking for someone to take over, um, basically the leading of, uh, their strategy team. Um, I was very much impressed by the story of Sender, by the people working at Sender, and I decided almost overnight to leave consulting, to move to Berlin, and to start my journey

at Sender. Um, from there, let's say it went all quite quickly. I basically did a couple of years at Sender helping on different strategic topics, and one of those topics was actually electrification, what kind of role could sender play in this technology shift, and from there, basically, it, it started the work on on Juna. Um, the discussions with the, with Kenya and let's say then I took the ownership of launching the company and from there also setting up the operations and today basically I lead the

company as CEO and one of the managing directors. Very interesting. Maybe before we proceed with Juna. Uh, one step back again on the private, private equity role. So which type of companies did you analyze back then, size wise or are there any topics in particular that you had to, and what key takeaways do you take from that time? Yeah, uh, interesting question. I mean, I really did a mix of a lot of things, um, mostly, let's say, um, company in their medium to large size. Uh

across a variety of industries, so I really looked into stuff that was, I remember energy. I, I, I remember looking into this hydrogen company, very interesting because it was for me an introduction to what hydrogen is. Um, I went into automotive, uh, I did media, so it was very much a mix and match of a lot of things. So I would say. I didn't really develop a vertical industry type of uh or specific to an industry type of knowledge. Mostly what I learned was a method

to really approach a problem or a big question which does not necessarily have a straightforward answer and try to break down the problem, try to break down um the question into small pieces and work on them to then get to to a final answer. Which I believe it is also today what I do in my daily, uh, in my daily life when it comes to my professional activity because entrepreneurship or any anyway, growing a company, it is very much like dealing with unknowns and trying to

face those unknowns and find a way, a successful way through those unknowns. So I would say I very much consider consulting like a gym where you build your muscles, where you build your technique, and then you need to go. I tend to say into the real world and then use those muscles, those techniques to kind of then um tackle challenges uh for real and being able to, as I was saying, also look into the the result and the implementation of your work. Makes sense. And, and

for Zenda, so you started working directly on immobility, that whole strategy then immobility. And how did you get to the conclusion of that building Juna and also with Gania was a good idea? What was the origin story then of of Juna? Basically at the beginning I was tackling for center a variety also strategic topics, um, but there was one specific point which was in the mind of David, the CEO and uh one of the co-founders, which was, uh, how the sender position itself when it comes

to technological shifts. And let's say if we look into the um transportation industry in the road transportation. We can see that there have been a couple of big shifts and a couple are coming up in the future. So of course Sender was built on the digitalization, which is a very, let's say transformative shift of of of the transportation industry. And the next shift that let's say sender was looking into um was back then the electrification and then if you, if we were to look into the

future, of course then we would have autonomous at some point. And so back then there was a thinking around what kind of hurdles were there for electrification to happen and what kind of role could sender play in order to allow electrification to accelerate because of course there is a part, an important part of the sender DNA which is what they call the green part, which is how to basically decarbonize operations. Um, and so we were discussing, I remember together with David and Nico, who's the, who

back then was the chief strategy officer, and Graham, who is the senior director of the Green department at Cender. We were discussing what kind of role um Sender could play, and back then the idea that we had, which is still, let's say one of the main concepts of Juna was, well, Sender has a lot of volumes, has a lot of connections with the big shippers who are actually demanding electric transport. What if we were to combine that demand with the supply of trucks? So basically we

would give to the average transportation company, which is a small medium company that doesn't want to take a lot of risk. What if we give them not only the technology, so the electric truck, but also ready utilization? Wouldn't we solve what today is preventing or even back then was preventing the adoption of electric trucks, which is the risk of investing into a new technology which is very expensive, which is very new, without the certainty of um having a return on that investment. So, that was the

starting point and then let's say there is a long-lasting relation between sender and Scania because Kya is one of the investors, um. At sender And hence basically we approached Scania, telling them a bit what was our narrative, our thinking. Back then also Scania was launching their first battery electric trucks, and they were going through a bit the same reasoning. How can we from an OEM perspective accelerate the adoption of electric trucks, knowing that again, new technology, expensive, not that easy to operate. And that's where basically

they like the idea. Uh, we started with a working group, we started, let's say refining the idea, building a bit of the typical business model, um, business plan, etc. and eventually we moved into the more concrete discussion, how to set up a company, that, of course, legal negotiation around building engine venture, which is never, let's say trivial. And from there, basically we, we moved into the incorporation of the company which happened at the end of 2023. And since then, basically uh we have Juna, so now

we are into or past the 2nd year of operation, um, which is, I think a very nice and very rewarding um achievement because we're making great progress from my perspective. Nice. And let's dive into the user that you already addressed that you're helping. So the drivers or the logistics companies that are usually It's very small, I understand. Maybe you can also give some stats what the typical target company is that you help and so if I understand correctly, the, the problem analysis you were identifying is

that they struggle with. Having the capex on the one hand of financing these trucks, that's the one big issue, and then being the insurer that they make enough revenue and therefore are able to cope with the costs of running the operations and thus you were solving those two problems with the utilization through the sender network and the Capex financing that you would provide, right? That's correct, so. And you're right, so if we look at the road freight industry, um, 80% of transportation companies are small to

medium companies. Uh, they have on average 7 trucks and they range between 10, let's say 5 to let's say 50 trucks. Um, those companies of course do not have, uh, the resources, neither they have the competencies to look into electrification, and they are risk adverse. Now, the typical model uh in the trucking industry would be to either sell trucks to transportation companies or to lease them. These models do not really fit the adoption of a new technology because they put all the risks of the new

technology into those small transportation companies who let's say traditionally would have to buy or lease the asset, learn how to optimize the utilization of those assets, and then find utilization to pay for their other CAE or OPEC depending on how they, they, uh, let's say, get access to those assets. Now what Juna or the way Junah. In a way, solve the adoption problem is by looking at who really demands. Um, electrification or decarbonization, and those are typically the freight buyers, and they can be shippers, Coca-Cola

Pepsi, Pepsi of this world, or even larger logistics service provider. Think about DHL, think about Kunen Naga, so the big logistics service provider. Those companies, they mostly operate via subcontractors. Basically 80 to 90% of their freight is moved by those small transportation companies we were talking about. Now, they need a way to incentivize those transportation companies to adopt electric trucks, otherwise they can't decarbonize their operations. So the logic Juna adopt is partnering with the logistics service providers and shippers, or the freight buyers and identifying where

electrification can happen, devising a roadmap for electrification to happen. And then approaching the transportation companies, the subcontractors, and enabling them to adopt electric trucks with a model which is not a typical rental or or lease, but is what we call a subscription. So it's as a service model whereby transportation companies get The truck, all the services related to the trucks, and also they pay based on utilization, so per kilometer. That, as you were correctly saying, solves two problems. On the one hand, the so-called financing of

the, of the new asset, considering that those assets are 2 to 3 times more expensive than the typical diesel trucks, but also solves already the utilization problem where those trucks will be utilized and Helps transportation companies having security of revenue to cover their cost. And sender plays a central role because sender is a large freight forwarder and has a connection with a large number of shippers who demand um. Green transport. So sender, especially at the beginning and still today played an important role in providing access

to that utilization that we combine with our subscription that allows electrification to happen today at a faster pace than if companies were let alone to invest into electric trucks. Got it. So one fundamental thesis or also underlying issue of the new technology that you're solving, if I understand correctly, that will be the biggest one, elephant in the room if you want, is range, right? That's how to deal with the more limited range of electric trucks. Uh, because at the end of the day, and, and if

you, if you are able to refuel or charge and just run your routes as you're just putting an electric truck as you would put a diesel truck and, and, and that's it, you don't have much change in your, in your, but you need to understand what routes. Uh, feasible with what range and and then what the charging implications are, right? That's, that's the complexity, the, the, the most, the largest complexity that you're solving with that approach, right? That's, that's definitely one big complexity, I would say

from an operational perspective, it's probably the largest, the corrector. Um, when I think about the complexities, let's say I usually tend to Look into different buckets, so there is definitely operational bucket, which basically means electric trucks have a limited range and also the infrastructure to charge the trucks is not as dense as the typical system or fueling gas and diesel. Um, so that is definitely on, on the, on the operational side, big, big, big, um, um, barrier to overcome. Then of course we don't have to

forget the financial barrier, so the fact that those trucks are more expensive when it comes to the CAE, so the cost, but also when it comes to operating them, when it comes to the operational expenditures, they need to be used in a certain smart way in order to basically realize competitive operational costs. So with our model, if you want, we tackle both because we find on behalf of the transportation companies, the lanes that we know can be electrifiable from an operational standpoint. So we know the

range is not too long or there is a refueling station or recharging station in between. We do the so-called technical analysis and we say we checked in, it can be electrified from a technical perspective. The second layer, which is extremely important is also solving the question, is it also cost effectively, uh, running the lane? Can we, can we run the lane at a cost which is near what is the, the, the usual term, the TCO, the, the total cost of ownership of running a truck on

that lane is near, um, the total cost of ownership of running the lane with diesel. So can we run close to the diesel cost? With an electric truck, and that is the second layer of complexity that we need to solve, and how do we solve that? Well, we need to take a bit of a broader perspective. We solve that through the way we finance electric trucks, so we bring down the cost of electric trucks through our financing model. That's 11 element. We solve that by looking

into charging. Charging and energy, it's an important component on the cost of running electric trucks. It's roughly 1/3 of the cost of the total cost of running electric trucks. So we have, let's say, a way of looking into smart charging. We have a partnership model with charging players to bring down the cost of charging. And then the third layer is how we build the routing, which I think is also what you were. Uh, referring at the beginning, which basically means because the assets are more expensive

they need to be run in a very effective way. So reducing as much as possible the empty kilometers. And we have a Juna, a tech team that has developed or is developing also, as we speak, a tech solution, and we have a team of so-called solution designers. What they do is basically they build within logistic networks, effective routings for electric truck. Basically, um, ensuring those electric trucks are as much as possible fully utilized and looking to the way electric trucks are used so that Utilization help

the business case and help the cost of operation to go down. Yeah, I love this breakdown. I think we, we, we did a great overview right now. We can deep dive a bit more in the third category, I think also would require a little bit of context setting for people who are not so familiar with the logistics industry. It will be very interesting to understand. How does it happen today? What's the status quo today? Is it as simple as saying a truck has an order, you

need, they need to run that order from A to B and then they just go back to this, to, to their point A empty. And that's 90% of the cases, or is it, yeah, is that a caricature and and where are you trying to get at eventually that they do more A, B, C, D type of route before getting back to the depot type of maybe you can get some more context there. Sure, and and and the reality is that there is no, let's say one

size fits all type of answer. Because it depends on the characteristics of the market. I'll give you a clear example, um, in Germany and from next year also in the Netherlands, electric trucks don't pay tolls on highways. That basically means that and also diesel trucks, they pay a very hefty. Tariff per kilometer, roughly 34 cents on highway. Now, that basically means that to find the best business cases or one of the best business cases is actually to make electric trucks running as much as possible full

on highways. Which basically means maximizing the time of a driver spent driving on a highway with an electric truck. This basically means that you prioritize or we prioritize long or longer, let's say, distance lanes that run up to 40 or 500 kilometers one way, mostly on highways. This also means though that the truck has to come back and if it comes back um empty, you have a lot of inefficiency because the diesel truck will not come back empty. The diesel truck would continue maybe doing another

load, maybe not even coming back, maybe it would go somewhere else because it's flexible enough they can pick another load and move somewhere else. With an electric truck, you need to know where the truck is going because you need to know where the truck will charge at some point, either during the day or at night. Which basically means you build those loops which are 100% completed or as much as possible, as much or as close as possible to 100%, and you try to build those loops

on highways so that you maximize the saving in cost that electric trucks can give you. In other countries, this is not the case. In other countries, if we run on a highway extensively, we don't have an advantage. I'll give you the example of, for example, Italy, and in those circumstances, for example, what we're seeing is that it's more cost competitive to reduce the number of kilometers, but to increase the number of Shipments so that we prioritize operations where we do a frequent A to B job

so the trucks move frequently A to B. It goes one way full, it comes back empty, and by coming back empty, it saves time to do another loop, another shipment. So that in that case, what we do is we optimize the number of shipments and we split the cost of the truck, the high cost of the truck on a high number of shipments. So depending on the market conditions and depending on also not just highways, not highways, but also cost of energy, depending on the cost

of the trucks as well in different markets, we have developed a different strategy that would allow us to build those smart routing which are suitable for electric trucks with the intent, with the scope and the goal of Bridging or closing the gap as much as possible between the cost of operating an electric truck and the cost of operating a diesel truck. Makes sense. And then on the second category, the, the charging, and then maybe before that, you said a third of the cost is charging, and

a third would be cap of, and then the other third is, is typically what we call the carrier or the transportation company cost, so think about the driver, uh, the, the trailer and their fixed cost. But mostly would be then the driver. And so on this third of the cost of the charging, what are the, the ways you help these companies? Is it, uh, you have, you said you have partners for the depot charging infrastructure set up, I imagine. And then the second would be. Uh

on public, you have partnerships with charge point operators, CPOs, or MSPs, so the carding or app. What, what's the approach for the two scenarios of charging? Yeah, that's correct. So basically we work with the partners in both, let's say the verticals. So vertical, let's say one, which is the second you mentioned, uh, public charging, um, maybe some of the listeners would be. Surprised to know that there are in certain markets, actually a rather high number of charging stations for trucks. Now, I'm not saying that number

is is enough to electrify road freight. We are barely at the beginning, we are scratching the surface. You mean exclusively like the of this world, or you mean that could be used by trucks in general also for it's it's a good point, so there are two categories. There are the so-called, we call them a truck built, so those have been built for trucks. Um, you mentioned Minas, which is definitely one of the leading players in in in this segment. Also BP Aral has developed stations for

electric trucks. We, we've seen also Shell playing into this, this, this, this vertical. So there are Both traditional incumbent players coming from the diesel world and let's say newcomers in a way, building stations for trucks. Those are the typical stations that can fit both the trailer and the tractor together, and they offer the best experience for charging because they are exclusively thought and built for trucks. Then there is another category which we call the so-called the truck friendly stations. Those would be stations where Let's say

the intention when they were built was not to host electric trucks, but only passenger cars, but because of the power of the infrastructure and because of the physical space, they can also fit not the tractor plus the trailer, but the tractor only, yes. Of course, those, uh those instances or in those instances, we need to be a bit more careful. We need to always have a certain agreement with the CPO that we can use those stations because we don't wanna, uh, from a safety reason, but

also from an operational reason, we don't wanna. Disrupt the normal operations of those stations, but today there are a number of instances where CPOs would allow tractors units to charge at stations which were built for passenger cars. So in this big bucket of let's say publicly available stations for trucks, um, we play with a partnership type of model, which basically means we have contact with all the so-called CPOs, so the charging point operators. We work with them to identify which stations are available and where. We

have our own database of stations which we maintain together with the CPOs. And we use that database to basically support our work on the efficient routing. The other thing that we do with that database is basically having an idea, an understanding of how much utilization we can bring to each and every CPO and discuss with them how we can bring down the cost of recharging at their stations. The idea for us is never to use discounts to earn more money on our end. We don't resell

electricity, but what we do is we pass any discount directly to our end customers, being the transportation companies. Because our mission is to reduce the cost of operating electric trucks to increase the volume, the number of electric trucks that we deploy together. Nice. Second bucket, uh, it's uh, is depot charging, on, on-site charging. Um, here also, we have a number of partners in our ecosystem and what we do is we work with them to Let's say first assess, does it make sense building a depot charger

charging infrastructure, um, depending on the utilization case that we have, and if so, basically we build together the business case and then we let them build and or manage the the charging station, um, because we don't have or it's not a competence that we have internally at at Juna. There is also an hybrid model in between, which I think is very interesting, especially. In this initial phase of electrification, which is the model of the semi-public stations, so those would be stations that have chargers, exactly. So

stations that would have been built by a logistic company but are not fully utilized. That basically means that those companies can give access to the spare capacity to other uh logistic companies. And there are a number of players who are building marketplaces, aggregating those stations, and they think that is a fantastic opportunity because Allows a perfect or let's say a more efficient utilization of infrastructure, which should bring efficiency to the whole uh transformation of the industry. What type of players are building these shared infrastructure projects

So there are different players dedicated, so, um, those shared stations usually are actually um designed and built for a specific company, um, in mind, but that specific company might only need them overnight or over the day. So they would have such a spare capacity and they can make that that spare capacity available. There are also players who are building, let's say, More shared if you want hubs uh where they would basically identify in a certain location a need for charging because it's a high frequency location

for logistics and then they would basically build the station. Knowing or having a certain commitment already from a specific company or multiple companies operating that logistic corridor. So that is also another maybe if you want. Species of those semi-public infrastructure. And to make sure I understood correctly, so for the CPO partnerships, you don't work with an MSP, so you, you work only with the CPOs directly. That's correct, that's happened in 90% of the cases. We do have certain agreement with the MSPs, specifically, there is Escania

company called Scania Charging Access that Uh is an MSP and we do partner with them on certain specific stations where they have good agreements, but let's say our Standard strategy would be to go directly and the reason being in this phase, we try to get as much as possible a direct disposal with the CPOs to support them, identifying where new stations can be built, to get also a frequent exchange on where they are planning to build the stations, and then to get as much as possible

let's say. A low rate, so without intermediaries to then being able to pass that on to our customers. And the approach for, I think you're now already in multiple countries, no, you're not only in Germany or Italy. And then the approach for building charging infrastructure depots, there are also, I guess you don't have one partner in Europe, but you have several in each geography or that's correct. So depending on geography and depending on availability of partners, we work with multiple players. And the idea is always

to bring the best positioned player um into the game to ensure that we can build together the business case that works for transportation company and for the shipper. OK. And, and let's talk about the, so you said you created a company in 2023. What's been the reception of the market? So how are people, transportation companies reacting so far? What are the hurdles and objections, challenges you're facing, and how are you addressing them? So, um. When you were like phrasing the question, I, it came to my

mind the very first electric truck we brought to the road, on onto the road, um, which happened, um, soon after we incorporated the company, um, and I still remember, let's say the experience of handing that over to a transportation company and because uh myself and the management management team of Juna, we basically traveled together with a truck actually. Um, the CEO, the COO Johann and the CFO, uh, Andred, they drove the truck because they come from the Scan ecosystem, so they have a license for, for

driving a truck. So, um, myself and Thomas, and Thomas is, is a CTO, we, we were driving, uh, let's say behind, uh, a car, and we together, we, we, we drove from Berlin to Stuttgart. Uh, to deliver the truck to, to this transportation company called Ava, which is one of our strongest partners today, and I do remember the, the energy and the motion, um, of the owner receiving, uh, the, the, the first electric truck, um, their first electric truck. Um, so what I'm trying to convey

here is that still today, what we see is that there is a very open uh acceptance of this technology. From most of the companies we work with. This doesn't mean that companies are not skeptical at the beginning, that they don't ask questions, that they don't also fear to an extent, uh, the technology, the cost to the unforeseenable um events that can happen, but once they are put in the right conditions, they are actually very much willing to go through this, um, shift. And there are two

reasons. Um, I mean, I'm not naive. There is definitely a sustainability type of reasoning. I would, um, really, and I really think there are a lot of companies in transportation that they, um, think, uh, and they want to, let's say, bring that decarbonization to the, to the table, to that, to that that that that element because they do understand that what they do, their service is fundamental for the society, but it does have an impact on, on, on, on the world. So yes, sustainability is a

big, of course, driver, and the second driver is They understand that to become and to remain competitive in the market, a market that is very much cost driven, they need to also distinguish themselves from their competitors. And especially small, medium transportation companies, they have a certain floor to how much they can optimize their cost base and hence betting on something which is the ability of offering a different service becomes a way to remain competitive in the market. So I would say the acceptance is of the

new technology is very, is, I would say it is very positive and specifically I would say our model um seems to be very much answering the needs and the questions of transportation companies because until now, whenever we had the case of a demand commitment from a freight buyer. Um, and then we talked to either their transportation companies or we brought in a transportation company to do the job. We never, let's say, received a decline. In the moment transportation companies are, let's say, supported. They are given

the asset, they are given the demand. They are very much. Open, willing and proactive to operate, and then when they go into operations, they actually take all the responsibilities, if there are problems, they, they know how to behave, obviously it's, you know, transportation and transport operations is their field and they become extremely attentive to ensure that the project develops in a positive way so that it can be prolonged, confirmed, and they can also grow their fleet of electric trucks. Nice. Used um use cases for these

trucks. I mean there are many can be long haul or more than the middle mile or the the distribution, um, so in in different types of use cases or sectors. What are the mostly used right now since you started, which, which are the typical use case of the AG20 if you want to put it. Yes, so today, let's say when it comes to where we have deployed trucks. I would say mostly we do what I would call regional distribution or regional haulage. Which basically means the

regional distribution is typically a hub and spokes type of operation, so the truck every morning starts from the same hub and then depending on availability of loads, it would move to different um destinations. Or regional distribution, meaning the truck would actually do A, B and then BA uh within the same day, every day. The distance can go everywhere between Let's say when I look point to 0.50 kilometers to 600 kilometers on a daily basis, so if we do obviously only 50 kilometers point to point, we

do multiple point to point, then on a daily basis, we never do less than 300, 350 kilometers because less than that we've seen is not economically competitive. So we need to max maximize the utilization of, of, of the electric trucks. And let's say we work across a variety of industries. There are some industries which are a bit more, let's say, Suitable for electrification, especially the industries where we see stable volumes and also return trips. I make an example, beverage industry is a typical industry where you

bring full bottles on the one hand, on the one leg, and then you return with empty bottles. Those are obviously already efficient loops by themselves. Other other industries, FMGCs for example, usually go only one way, and hence we are the ones who have to find an optimization on on the return on the return leg. But let's say we do both customer or consumer facing industries where The ability of also using uh the transportation and the green transport as a as a marketing, as a communication uh

lever is um is is is exploited, so we we work with the consumer facing um er industries, but also with industrial industries where, Uh, sometimes the cost of transport on, uh, let's say, or the contribution of the of the cost of transport on the cost of the final good is, um, is lower than in consumer faced industries, and hence there is a slightly higher acceptance on higher cost of electric transport. Got it. In the TCO that you have measured so far and you managed to get

it so equivalent or even lower than diesel. So I would say it, it, it is also here um a case by case um type of uh answer. We do work in certain setups where we brought to the shipper and optimization together with the deployment of electric trucks. I have one in mind that we are running in Hamburg, where basically we combined uh loads that were traditional. Done by multiple trucks, we put them on one truck and hence basically we have reduced the number of vehicles, but

then also switched to electric vehicles and we made it uh TCO neutral just by basically building efficiency in their network. There are cases where we've been able to switch an operation which is running extensively on the highway and hence we've been able to go TCO parity. There are other cases where the shippers need to make an an an investment. So, it, it is very much dependent on how and how we can design the operations on how also the operations have to run, um, but our objective

is always to close the gap and the reason is that we do understand that. Electrification to happen at scale has to happen at a cost competitive manner. We cannot pretend and we cannot foresee um high adoption of electrification if Moving goods with electric trucks cost 3 to 4 times moving goods with a diesel truck, so we need to come to the TCO parity. It is obviously a joint effort. We as Juna have built a model which I Very much believe can help steering electrification into that

direction. We definitely need the support of VMs. We need the cost of their trucks to go down. We need them to take and be more brave on the so-called residual value. We need support from charging players. We need them also to take a risk, not. Lowering, let's say, the cost of electricity only when their stations will be full, but also accepting that in order to have the stations full, they need to support on the cost of electricity. And then also we need the shippers to be

let's say, willing to sometimes flex their operations. So to allow certain efficiency to happen, sometimes we need to make certain changes. We need to Include the so-called stunt trailers, uh, which basically allows us to just do, uh, more, um, loads, more shipments, um, in the, in the same day. So we also need that type of flexibility. It is, in essence a bit of an ecosystem play. I do still see that today everyone is working on the right direction, but to increase the speed of adoption, we

probably need also to increase, uh, The speed of the work in in in the direction of TCO party. Yeah, I don't have it on top of my mind in terms of electric truck costs decreased so far, but batteries have been decreasing in cost tremendously, and the trend is still going downwards. So I'm not sure if you have on top of your mind as well what what the cost of an electric truck was in a couple of years back, and now we're talking 2 to 3 times

when. And probably will, will end up less than 2 maybe times than game changers in that perspective, for example. It's, it's a very fair point. So yes, to answer directly to your question, we've seen a decline in the cost of electric trucks. Let's say. Since we started, which was also, let's say, the first year all OEMs. Introduced their path electric models. Up until now, I would say we've probably seen across borders, a 10% and 15% decrease, uh, so over two years now. Is that rate going

to be so quick? Um, I would say there are different perspectives. Um, I would assume it will probably, let's say, go down in the next 2 to 32 to 3 years, um, another probably. 10% per year, that's, that's I think that's possible and then it, it will probably plateau. Um, there are different trends, of course that will or potentially can accelerate that decrease. Um, one big one is the Entrance of Chinese players in the market, uh, because, and we already see them, I mean, um, starting

from 2026, there are a couple of Chinese players who, Should, uh, basically, uh, start operations with their, um, with their offering, and we do know in Europe, correct, and we do know that the price point is, um, is competitive, very competitive. There are a lot of open questions to what extent also their product is competitive, their servicing, so their repair and maintenance is competitive, but definitely they will put some pressure on, on, on, on trucks to go down from, uh, European manufacturers. So yes, the, the

the, the cost decrease, it's, it's visible and it will continue. I also believe that if we take the experience uh from the passenger cars, the, the curve will continue to decrease, right? Because there are economy of scale, economy uh of learnings. It is also true that let's say we talk about a different technology, so it's not going to be, let's say what what we need to do is we need to gain that the scale in the, in the, in the batteries for electric trucks, um, so

that basically we need more trucks to be pushed into the market if we want those economy of scales to kick in. And in the charging aspect also there I see a lot of tailwinds to reduce costs. And I'd be curious, on the one hand, how much the distribution is right now from public to private charging, so depot charging, and how do you expect this to develop for, for, for these use cases? And second, how do you And that's something that we are here at Rygy also

very passionate about is like how to make the flexibility in energy usage an asset to reduce costs like charging when spot markets are very low cost, both in public chargers and private chargers, but also if you have a special depot, the opportunity to install some. Solar trying to maximize that energy and supporting the grids, all these aspects and bidirectional charging, you know, selling energy in these batteries when they are parked, all these aspects I think can also decrease the cost a lot. How do you see

that? Yeah, so when it comes to the split, I would say if, if I look at the June experience, today we are. Relying to a great extent on public charging. I would say roughly 60 to 70% of our trucks um charge on public stations. And the reason is that of course, um, there is a cost of electricity which is higher when you charge publicly, but the speed at which you can deploy electric trucks. Um, is different because you don't have to wait for the infrastructure to

be ready. Sometimes the grid power is not there, so exactly. So when you go with public charging, you, you can act faster and especially when you initially deploy a limited number of electric trucks. There is no, let's say, real limitation in using public charging. Today, I was mentioning at the beginning we have a very interesting case which, which runs in in Hamburg where we have 5 electric trucks deployed with 1 shipper and 1 carrier, all charging at the public charging infrastructure station without, let's say any

any problems because let's say in the Rights set up, I would still say that when you find The right charging station for the right project, usually the capacity is available. Now will this change moving, let's say forward? Yes, of course, because I do expect that more electric trucks will enter the market and the speed at which the electric trucks can enter the market is. Faster than the speed at which we can deploy um infrastructure, so yes, we need to also rely on on depot charging, because

depot charging would also help efficiency, would help to basically take the right uh trade-off between charging, for example, slow overnight and charge fast during the day or fast during operations and and and and and uh slow when, when there is a break. So moving forward, I would say I've heard and I've read different numbers. I do believe depot charging will play an important role, depending on the type of operations. So depending if we're talking about regional or long haulage, it can play anything between the 40

and the 60%. Uh, because, of course, it, it is highly reliant on availability of a depot, um, at the end of the operation, so the trucks need to run close to the depot and need to return back to the depot. And do they all have a depot? And that's an interesting question as well, like do most transportation companies have enough, uh. Capacity as well to install chargers at their depots. That's one point. Do they have the depots? Are the depots also located where they run the

trucks? Sometimes, uh, transportation companies run trucks kilometers away from their depot, um, and hence the trucks do not go back to the depot. Makes sense. It is also true that, uh, within the bucket of depot charging, you can also consider the chargers that now shippers are building at their warehouses. So, Definitely, uh, depot charging will play an important role. Today it is also playing an important role. We work with a number of transportation companies who are making the investment and let's say we definitely see that

this investment uh pays off um if the infrastructure is well designed, is the right size and it is also used efficiently. Um, going back to your point on, for example, dynamic charging, uh, bi-directional charging, those are definitely concepts which are extremely important in the industry. I would think that that's where you build the value, um, as a charging player, the basic, the software part, the ability of uh Building an infrastructure which is not only the charger connected to the grid, but also placing a battery, replacing

the PV and then playing with all the different assets through basically the um the charging management systems. Today, what I see is that the industry is catching up on that point. So, for example, in public charging, dynamic pricing is not yet a thing, and hence also the way I know CPOs are designing the pricing strategies to cover the, the highest cost. Because they cannot foresee the demand that they cannot really yet do the dynamic pricing the way they would like to do, but I know that

they are all working on, on, on that direction. So I'm confident that not only. Infrastructure will become more available, but also that the way infrastructure will be used and optimized will bring down the cost of energy. That makes total sense. And one point you raised as well that I, at least in my conversations got often is we cannot use public chargers because it's not reliable, but you seem to suggest that from experience you don't see any. Uptime jeopardization if, if you have to rely on public

charges, they're usually usable, right? You don't need to reserve, have the ability of reserving them is often also mentioned. How, how do you look at that? Yeah. It's, it's a good point. Reservation is definitely a hot topic in the industry. Um, I would say today from experience it's more like a psychological point and not an actual point, meaning. Uh, we often hear. Shippers or freight buyers, but even transportation companies um asking ourselves what if the station is occupied, what if it's not available. in most of

the cases, this is not going to happen and anyhow when we design a project, we always Check with the charging point operator to what extent that station is. Usually occupied, given historical data, um in certain windows, so yes, it is something that we take um into consideration availability, but today I would say booking is probably not needed given the number of trucks on the road. In the future will be needed, especially on certain operations where being on time is extremely important. Think about e-commerce. Think about

automotive. So definitely we are also collaborating with CPOs to ensure that they get our input when it comes to building the slot booking systems. But as, as a general concept today, it's not probably the bottleneck in charging. When it comes to, let's say, reliability of public chargers, I would say. Our experience is that CPOs, especially, I can only talk or mostly talk for the truck stations, are extremely, on average, are extremely reactive and extremely fast if let's say we signal that one of their stations is

not working. Um, there is a big, obviously reputation game here because. In the moment your station is not working, while with a passenger car you can just maybe move a few kilometers or you can just change the socket because maybe you have multiples and a good number of them available. With trucks this is not the case, and then if you have a bad experience, you probably won't go back to the station. And hence I would say I can see that there is a strong effort from

CPOs, and so far I would say we haven't been experiencing problem on the quality of charging points. Well, that's very good. And what about the residual value? You mentioned it on one side note. What's the risk there? Is it also you bear the risk, the transportation company, the OEM, and also the battery lifetime then. That is also always a, a topic. Yeah, so in our model and also how I see the industry, uh, let's say moving, residual value is something that either, let's say, stays in

the hand of the OEM. So typically this would happen if we have um a leasing or in our case with our e-truck as a service model, we take back the truck at the end of the assignment, so we have. We, we bear the reserve value risk, but then we have agreements with the OEMs, so that is the one way or the other way would be companies buying electric trucks and then having the reserve value on their, on their books. I think the industry will move in

a direction where residual value will stay with the OEMs. So basically the e-truck as a service model will become the main model where the ownership of the asset stays in the hand of the, the, the OEM or in this case of Juna, and Juna has an agreement with the OEM. Because There is a value in the asset once it goes back. Which is higher than the residual value that used to be for diesel trucks. Diesel trucks in the end are iron, if you want to simplify

extremely, so once they go back, let's say the actual value is quite low, it's quite limited. When batteries go back to the, to the, let's say, goes back meaning at the end of the life of a truck, the battery still has 80% of its capacity, but below 80%, unfortunately is not suitable for transportation anymore. It becomes unreliable, but it can be used for other applications. Think about storage. Which basically means there is a certain

Value for OEMs to keep and to retain the ownership of the batteries because they can value them, OK, they can monetize them in in other applications, while transportation companies would not be able to do so because they play another game and and and it would be difficult for them to specialize also in this circularity, uh, let's say game. So my view is that OEMs would want to keep the value of their uh of their assets at the end of their lives, so they want to basically

have also this residual value risk. Now where I do see potential to improve is the ability of pricing the residual value in the correct way and in a bit more aggressive way. Today, due to the limited experience, the limited number of trucks, all these buyback agreements tend to have a rather low residual value. Because it's a very conservative one. This basically means that the, the, the, the, the, the cost of what is paid in terms of truck is obviously uh most of it, uh, so more

more, and so the delta also with the diesel then becomes even more. And now what we are doing for example with scanning, which is very interesting, we are cooperating with one of their team, um who's basically responsible for actually understanding how the residual value changes depending on the operations of the trucks. So they have not only, let's say, capabilities in understanding the trends on the battery markets, but also capabilities in understanding how the battery is depleted during operations, depending on the type of operations. So we're

working with them to ensure that basically we can do two things. One is uh we can take more risks on the residual value, but also, and this is specifically interesting for Juna, we can build a bit of a more flexible pay per use, even more flexible, because if you use the trucks in a certain way. And you are saving a residual value, then you can also give back or reduce the uh the price to the customer because you have more battery that you can use in

other applications later on, later down the line. Another cool thing that we are thinking about at Rynergy as well is to combine charging with um energy optimization with battery lifetime optimization, so you can do a lot of things if you're wrong with the battery chemistry. So considering battery chemistries, if you do the C rates or the temperatures of the cells and consider what's the current temperature, what's the C rate or the SOC. You have also operational charging strategies that you can run and you can then

prove that it affected the battery in a in a positive way and then therefore also the residual value better. That's super cool. Yeah, it's super cool and I think there is a lot of things which are going on in, in that, in that, let's say a vertical if you want, and of course we, we are helping, meaning we Try to put tracks on different types of operations, learn out of those operations, and then understand which operations are the most efficient, also when it comes to, Extracting

value from the batteries, and I think we're still at the very, very beginning here, but um I see so much progress and it's such an interesting field that I'm very much looking forward to seeing. What else can be done uh in the space. And I and I've seen on LinkedIn or on social media, you generally one of the key projects you were talking about with Gruba logistics. Maybe you can share a few more contexts on that one. It's a, it's an interesting one, meaning Gruba it's

not, let's say the typical customer that we serve because it's a rather large transportation company. Um, and so they usually would buy trucks and would make investments and they've also done that in the, in the space of electric. Where I think, um, it was an interesting discussion with Gruber is that when we got in contact, uh, they needed some additional capacity for some assignments which were rather on the shorthand. So they did not want to take the risk of buying assets, only knowing that those assets

would have had a limited assignment. And also, let's say one of the discussion I remember I had with Gruber was, yes, they are a large company and by now they also have a lot of experience in electric and electric transport, but back then they obviously said that when we look into electrification, we're also a small company, we also have only a few units, so we also, let's say, need, you know, the type of support, but also the type of sparring partners to help us to grow

faster. And hence basically we decided to deploy um a few units together. To basically give them the ability of um answering to that uh short-term demand they had from a customer. Um, and it was a very, let's say, fruitful and interesting discussion. We had trucks in operations for some time. Now we are discussing how to potentially increase the cooperation with other, with the customers and in general, for me, talking to, let's say those companies who are traditional logistics companies but are so much. On, on the

front row when it comes to electrification is always refreshing because it helps us also to understand how, let's say, how to even More precisely shape our value proposition to help the transition to happen. Yeah, yeah, and on that note, there is the Electro trucker and the Nano Jansen company. What's your view on, on those on those type of companies and and and their, their story? Yeah, no, I similarly I would say to me those are very positive stories, um, as I said, I, I feel refreshed

when I see traditional companies embracing the change and also taking risks. Um, obviously they have a strategy which is different from, let's say utilizing Juna. They buy assets, they take their own risks, but I think those are such great stories because they really show how the industry proactively is trying to, let's say, embrace this change. And to be fair, those are good and successful use cases, and the more we can spread the good and successful use cases, the more I think we can turn a little

bit the narrative. The electrification is not happening now, that it is too expensive, that is too complex. And we can gather, let's say the positive attention from the players in the logistics, but also from the regulators, and I think that would eventually just speed up the process. Yeah. And uh so you are Italian now living here in Germany and Juna and then there are German companies. How do you look at countries to enter in geographies to To serve and, and which, which ones have better policy

regulatory incentives and what's, what's the factors where you decide, OK, now we, we enter that one. I think China is the number one. is that even a market or, or how do you consider? Let's say I would love to open an office in Italy, maybe somewhere in the south of Italy, and I'm just joking. I think it's gonna happen in the, in the, the, the short term, but uh let's say, on a serious note, we see ourselves as a um European player, so for the time

being we don't foresee anything which is outside Europe, uh and we believe Europe is a big enough market, um, with a big enough challenge that we would have more than enough here uh to do. How do we look into different markets? Uh, today is a combination of, of elements. What we, our North Star is always the so-called TCO parity. So what we do is usually we do two things. On the one hand, we take what we, what we see being the freight rates, so how costly

is to run diesel, uh, in a given country. Usually we use the either the cost per kilometer, um, when it comes to the more Medium long distance or the daily rates uh for the very short distance, and then we make our own business case when it comes to what would be the equivalent if we were to run electric trucks. Um, and so yes, we take all the elements in consideration, so basically the cost of the trucks, uh, the service, cost of electricity, um, cost of tolls

so we, we take all the cost input. And that helps us with the business case and then we look into infrastructure. How well developed is infrastructure, what are the plans from the CPOs to build infrastructure. And then last but not least, we look into do we already have potential partners or customers that we can let's say work together to find the first business cases to then launch the operations without starting with concrete businesses and not only with let's say the cost of. A new legal entity

So yeah, the cost, the infrastructure, and the business development opportunities for electric truck it's similar to passenger vehicles in terms of electrification rate in Europe, where the Nordics and Norways is the most advanced Netherlands and then and then the UK and then the more southern you go, the less they are. I would say generally that's that's the case, which is also a bit unfortunate because again I'm Italian. I would love to see, let's say, a lot of electric trucks in Italy. But that's, that's the, that's

the case. I think that is obviously um partly the two things are connected, right? So, the more people are acquainted to the technology, to the electric technology on a personal level, the more or the less they are scared um when it comes to adopting it also for business. So totally, yes, we see the Nordic countries uh driving the shift, um, then we have uh say Central Europe. Where I would say Germany did a great job, although lately has been lagging a little bit because Germany used

to have a very

I was a very big incentive scheme, then I mean it's debatable if the, the way it was built uh was the most effective and efficient one, but definitely was very interesting uh incentivization scheme. Uh, France now is coming up quite strong because the cost of energy is very low, uh, mostly driven by the nuclear, and then unfortunately we have the Southern Europe, uh, lagging a bit behind, um. I would say Nordics are probably going through their 3rd wave of electrification when it comes to business. Central

Europe is probably the 2nd, uh, Southern Europe is the 1st. Makes sense. And so you have a quite unique model. Nevertheless, in every attractive market there are competitors. I think one that I think I know is Einride. What would you say is your USP compared to competitors? Yeah, it's a very interesting point. So Android is also a very interesting story, super successful business. Um, they are. More of a transportation company, meaning they also um do transport operations. And they also own a fleet. So to an

extent, yes, we, we are competing with them on, on several customer uh discussions. They could also be a competitor they could also be a customer of ours, they could also, let's say, you know, take trucks from us. But let's say in general, the more, if you want traditional competitors would be rental companies or OEMs that basically only provide, could only provide assets. Now what we do, which is different, and sorry, by the way, there are also more, let's say also more e-truck as a service companies

that also have a pay per kilometer type of offering that are emerging in in different markets. Um, in Germany we have a couple of big examples and then there are other small examples um across Europe. In general, what is our very much unique point is this utilization element. So there are no players in the market who, let's say, have a Zender behind, have a center behind, but let's say Zender was, if you want the partner to kick off such a model, today we don't only gather

utilization fromender. We work directly with other um shippers, freight buyers, logistics service providers who give access to their utilization. So Sender is still super important partner to, to, to, to us, but now we are, let's say on on our journey to be basically fully independent and of course we will still serve carriers uh with utilization from Sender, but the idea is that basically we have multiple senders in our portfolio. Um, and this element is something that let's say no one else has in the market because

let's say models such as Android, they would also be the transportation company. So either they win the transportation contract or they will not basically electrify a specific project. We don't have to win the transportation contract. For us, we are agnostic who is the transportation companies operating. We can sell with our model or or any type of transportation company. But we would help them to find utilization, so we would talk to the freight buyers to identify the utilization and then the freight buyer can decide what transportation

companies they want to, let's say, give the transportation contract to. We will work with them to enable actification. Understood. And looking at the future, what are the things that excites you most in, let's say near term for Juna and more middle long term in terms of technology, like for example, autonomous driving or other things that might affect. Yeah, I would say in the short term, to me the most exciting element is basically I mean, it goes without saying, but it's basically scaling Juna and scaling the

team and the company to um a size, um, which, you know, uh, I, I can be proud of. I'm very much proud of the size um we are at now, but of course it's a drop in the ocean and I would like this drop to basically become bigger and bigger. Um, so I'm very much focused on understanding how can I and the team uh with me, how can we Improve the business model. How can we also ensure that our business model and what we offer remains

very much relevant considering that the industry is a very dynamic one. It will go through different iterations. Cost of the trucks will go down, infrastructure will be built, so what will be The, the, the hardest and how can we in this dynamic and ever evolving uh scenario, how can we remain relevant, how can we keep our competitive advantage. So that is my focus and I would say for the short, medium term, it's enough because things are moving so quickly that it's really the ability of talking

to customers, getting their feedback, uh, iterating with the team what can be developed from a commercial model, from a technology model, and then let's say, bringing that to implementation. Long term, um, I'm definitely, let's say, I, I, I do still think that electrification to an extent is a long term, uh, let's say journey, uh, because I think, so if we look at the numbers and the estimations, um, At 2030, let's say the estimation is that one third of newly sold trucks will be electric trucks, so

it's still 1/3 of 2030, so to arrive to, let's say 50% and then 160%, uh, so on and so forth, it will take a lot of time. So I would say long term there is still, let's say electrification as a as a big topic, but of course the next wave will be autonomous. Um, it is something that I think will take another 5, if not 10 years to become very much relevant, but it's always hard, you know, to, to predict such a technology shift. They can

be very much earlier, uh, depending on, uh, how not only technology but especially the regulatory setup, um, will evolve. So I think logistics in general, transportation in general is such a dynamic industry. Um, that it's, it's a good industry to be in, it's a good industry not to get, let's say bored and to be always, uh, thinking about what is the next transformation, what is the next thing that will disrupt, uh, the dynamics and how can in this case, Juna remain relevant and maybe even rethink

their business model to potentially even address autonomous at some point. Yeah, fascinating and As a last message for listeners, do you have anything special you would like to leave them with, and how can people reach out to you in general? Well, in general, let's say what I would like to, to, to leave to the listeners is a way to to get in touch with with us. Both if they are interested, uh, you know, in the first person, uh, in adopting, uh, electric trucks, if they're transportation

companies or uh partners working in the electrifications who, um, might see connection with Juna, with the Juna model and, uh, in general, I said, I think is a, is a, is a systemic place, so we are always not only looking for customers but also partners, so. Uh, definitely visiting Juna.com or even uh reaching out directly to me on my personal or professional email address, which is Matteo. Oberto@juna.com. Um, I would be very happy, let's say, to, to pick up a conversation, but even enthusiasts in the

industry who, uh, let's say, um, might be a bit less involved, involved from a personal perspective, but would be, let's say, curious to discuss a bit more of the topics, maybe they have good ideas. Um, we are in general, and I personally am very much open, uh, to, let's say, given also my availability to, let's say discuss, uh, cause it's a topic that fascinates me besides, let's say the, the, the, the office hours. Um, so definitely reach out to us, um, not only to me, to

the full team, we are, I, I think a great group of passionate people and definitely we are happy to, to, to discuss about electrification. Yeah, I could feel a passion. Thanks a lot, Matteo, and keep on trucking. Thank you very much. What I appreciate most about this conversation is how concrete it stayed. Matteo doesn't frame electrification as a hype cycle. He frames it as a logistics equation. If you cannot secure reliable utilization, predictable charging, and an economic model that carriers can trust, you do not have

an electric shocking rollout, you have a demo. We covered the mechanics behind that equation, why depot charging is often the anchor when public charging can work, and how semi-public shared stations can unlock scale by serving multiple logistics players. We also touched on the hidden commercial layer subscriptions, paper kilometer thinking, and the uncomfortable but essential topic of residual value and how battery performance over time shapes financing and risk. Before you go, 3 lines from this episodes worth keeping in mind. Electrification needs demand signals, not just vehicles

Infrastructure is not only a build-out problem, it's an operations and access problem. And the winners will be the ones who package trucks charging in commercial structures into something a carrier can run with confidence. Thanks for listening and keep on trucking.

S2 Ep. 3: Matteo Oberto - Co-Founder & CEO at JUNA | Scaling Electric Trucking Through Utilization-Driven Models

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