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Smart Charge · 14 February 2025 · 1 hr 0 min

Ep. 2: Norman Pieniak, Flottenelektrifizierung, Smart Charging, V2G, Schweiz, Post Company Cars

Transcript

Cleaned up from a machine transcript. Translations are machine-generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy Podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, Founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

Hello Norman. How are you doing today? Great to see you again. Claudio. It's Friday, end of the week. That's always good. Yes, I'm glad it worked out. And I'd like to kick things off in the podcast with you, with your background, so we can pick up our listeners and understand a bit where you're coming from and where you've landed now and how you got there. And what your perspective is, so to speak, on the topic of fleets, energy transition, mobility transition before we dive deeper into the details. So you're welcome to

go into more depth. Maybe your childhood or wherever you'd like to start. But of course in summary and briefly. Then we can still ask some follow-up questions. Okay. Yes, I'm a Berlin native, I studied mechanical engineering at TU Berlin, with a focus on wind energy. So my path to something renewable and electrical was definitely already laid out, but more with a focus on renewable energies. I was at the Reiner Lemoine Institute for eleven years, started there as a research associate and quite quickly

I transitioned into the area of electric mobility. We had one of the projects at South Cross, a showcase project for electromobility. It was about integrating renewable energies, but in connection with electric fleets. I think that was the Flinkster fleet from Deutsche Bahn, which we had in the microgrid. And that kind of paved the way for the jump into electromobility. And since then I've been working in the area of vehicles, but always with the focus on how they can be charged renewably.

Much more so at the Reiner Lemoine Institute than right now. I've been in Switzerland for a bit more than a year now and I've arrived at Swiss Post, at the fleet manager Post Company Cars. Okay, exactly, that's a good overview. Exactly. And how did you come up with the idea to study wind energy? That was – when was that roughly? At that time wind energy was probably still not so –

I started my studies in 2006. I was one of the guinea pigs in this bachelor-master system and then I went through the studies until 2012. And in my master's I focused on wind energy. I had a professor in the area of construction, also drive engineering, also stress-appropriate design, I think. Professor Robert Liebig. And there were connections to wind energy as well. And it was so fascinating for me that I then wrote my master's thesis in that area. I also did

an internship at a company that dealt a lot with vibration measurement. And through that I got into wind turbines. That was also exciting, of course, to stand in gondolas over one hundred meters high and look off into the distance. Yes. And the direction then RLI – if I understand correctly, you went directly to RLI after your studies? Why not go into the wind industry then, if you were already so specialized in the wind sector? Well, it was still

wind. That's why. So I got there through my master's thesis and the connections to the managing director, the former managing director of RLI. Professor Quaschning was also a professor at HTW Berlin and so to speak wore two hats and launched many wind energy projects at the Reiner Lemoine Institute. And as part of a project there was a cooperation between my master's thesis and RLI. And that's how the connection arose. I then also spent the first two years still working on wind energy, did a lot of work on test stands, also did a lot of PLC programming there, and generally a lot of modeling. And as I said, it then became more focused on e-mobility through the mentioned South Cross project.

Ah, okay. Yes, that's interesting to see how one could study wind energy so early, because I also started studying in 2008 and then mechanical engineering. And back then renewable energies weren't yet available as a master's or bachelor's degree program, let alone a specialized one on wind energy. Yes. Then you made the switch to e-mobility – and just for better understanding of the project you highlighted with the Flinkster fleet: What exactly was it about? Was it a car-sharing fleet that had to be operated completely electrically at South Cross, or how should one picture that?

No, the Showcase for Electromobility had the entire South Cross train station area in focus. It was also about other aspects like passenger guidance and orientation through the train station, so to speak, so they could find the places they wanted to go through the app. But of course in connection with that also the question: How can the power supply at South Cross become greener, precisely also through local energy generation? The project itself initially focused on implementing renewable energies that would then, even more locally at this one parking lot where the Flinkster fleet was stationed, supply those electric vehicles. Always in connection of course with the public power grid. That meant it wasn't an autonomous system, and yet we could increase the share of local energy generation in the charging

there. This was a car-sharing fleet that had to be operated completely electrically at South Cross, or how can you picture that? No, the Showcase for Electromobility had the entire South Cross train station area in focus. It was also about other aspects like passenger guidance and orientation through the train station, so to speak, so they could find the places they wanted to go through the app. But of course in connection with that also the question: How can the power supply at South Cross become greener, precisely also through local energy generation? The project itself initially focused on implementing renewable energies that would then, even more locally at this one parking lot where the Flinkster fleet was stationed, supply those electric vehicles. Always in connection of course with the public power grid. That meant it wasn't an autonomous system, and yet we could increase the share of local energy generation in the charging

of electric vehicles. Storage was, solar system was, was small wind. That was, in a sense, also still a bit my legacy that swung along there too. But yes, exactly. And then it faded out, slowly. Yes. You don't hear much about Flinkster in public anymore. Just out of curiosity: do you happen to know how the project is going – whether there's still a lot of offer from Deutsche Bahn? You hear more about Miles or maybe Free Now as well-known offerings now in the, in the

in the sharing, let's say, offering. Yes. Well, they do have a website, but how much they're still being used, I have no idea. If I remember correctly, the approach was stationary sharing. And of course that's a completely different use case. It was also very much about seeing how you could connect this offering with the train ticket. Those who have business trips, they arrive, take that vehicle, drive out to Atlasof or somewhere to a business meeting,

drive with the vehicle back to the train station and then back to Munich or whatever. How it's actually still being used, I can't say. When I lived in Berlin, I preferably used the free-floating sharing variant. Yes. For certain cases, as you say, you can still imagine it, but otherwise it's difficult. Maybe for small villages. I know there are lots of small stationary carsharing offers there. And once more

on your RLI time. That was eleven years. Nowadays it's not really that common to stay with one employer that long. If you could perhaps give a few insights into what your highlights were, what you're taking away from the experience – certain projects or what comes to mind. Yes, maybe already a small shift into the present. But here at the Post in Switzerland, I've heard quite often how the thirty-fifth or fortieth anniversary at work is being celebrated. So

there are actually other companies where it's apparently almost unusual to leave after eleven years. Exactly, what I then did at RLI: the Südkreuz project was actually for me personally the starting point to unlock the full potential of e-mobility and to identify synergies especially. And what I found very exciting was working through this case also with the e-buses. The bus line – it was the two-oh-four, I think – that ended up there, precisely from BVG, with an induction-

with an induction charging station in the ground. And that's also when the cooperation with TVB Berlin was strengthened. That means we had already calculated in our scientific monitoring of this project at Südkreuz how much sense it makes, and with which energy system – especially whether it makes economic sense to charge e-buses there. And out of that ultimately came: we then started Metrobus with BVG and TÜV Berlin together, and developed an electrification strategy

for the fleet of Berlin public transport. The focus of us – of my team, of me – was especially on the design of the energy system. And I always say "us" or "we" because in the end I very quickly moved into project management, into team leadership, and of course then I couldn't do as much calculating myself anymore. I then guided my team, so to speak. And out of this first project

the next one came along already. It's called E-Bus 2030 Plus now, still. I think it's actually still running right now and is being continued by my former colleague. And essentially it's about – you can look at quite a bit – around these 1700, 1800 buses that are supposed to be running electrically soon. So that is – I read that it's been softened a bit. That was the goal, but it was communicated like this before: by 2030

complete electrification. That would be essentially the total number of buses operating for BVG: 1800. Yes, exactly. And when did you do this project, for context? I need to think. Metrobus started, I think, in 2018, 2019. It took a while. SĂĽdkreuz and also the showcase at EUREF-Campus, that ended in 2016. And then it took a bit longer until we could start with Metrobus. That was, I think, 2019

and ran for four years. We wrapped that up, I think, in 2023. Yes, it's been a while now, as I said, so the dates are approximate. Yes, and this project at the EUREF-Campus – is that the Mobility-to-Grid, or is that something different again? I think that's what came out of it. So in 2012 the showcase project at Microgrid EUREF or so started, parallel to the showcase project – so they were both showcase projects: Südkreuz and EUREF-Campus. And it was also about local

energy generation, a fleet at the Grey Garage – I don't remember what it was called back then, but against

right across from the Schneider building as well. On the other side was the IOZ – I think that's not there anymore either. And that's where we set the starting point, also with this project, around which lots of other projects also came about, including autonomous driving and so on. Well, what was interesting was being involved in many projects that certainly shaped Berlin and continue to shape it. And BVG also for context – I don't know if you can assess that:

Is BVG a leader in Germany when it comes to electrifying its fleet, compared to other transport operators? When it comes to percentages, I don't think so. I think there are others because they simply have a smaller fleet. They're further along, but due to the size, I'm not sure right now. I think they're, if you look at it that way, also ahead of Hamburg, because Hamburg you can split into two parts – there's the VHH on the one hand and then the Hochbahn on the other, I think,

yes, exactly. Those are two transport operators. But if you add up the Hamburg transport operators together, then I don't think they differ that much. But as I said, I've been out of the loop for a while when it comes to German developments. But I still remember that this way of counting also had some relevance in whether Berlin or Hamburg was ahead. And a topic I also discussed a bit in the last podcast: to what extent you can switch completely to electric mobility for certain forms of transport. How do you see that then, especially

in light of your experience with buses? Are there certain points where you think: oh, that's difficult, switching 100 percent to electric mobility – with buses, particularly in this use case for public transport? Or are you actually relatively optimistic that we can pull it off?

Well, the big challenge is either very long routes or routes where you have strong topography. That's not the case in Berlin. Here in Switzerland, for example, with PostAuto – we definitely have that issue. And of course we need to make sure that vehicles exist with the appropriate battery capacity and range. We need to ensure we have appropriate charging strategies, also on the route. Depot charging alone is probably not going to be the solution

then. And depending on what options you have: over land transport it's of course difficult to set up opportunity charging because then the grid connection might be a bit further away than it is in the city. But you do have more space to break up the ground and build something accordingly. In Bensheim we had a project called Buffer Hill. And a colleague, Julian Brände, he runs that project, I think he still does, or I think it just wrapped up. But

the idea was that precisely given the background that you might not be able to expand or build the grid connection, in that case you manage the intermediate charging with a flywheel storage system. And then it's really never about charging the battery back up to full, but simply distributing the intermediate charges throughout the day in such a way that you don't arrive at the depot with a completely empty battery and you get through the day. And were you also working on the topic of ships at the RLI or otherwise?

or aircraft, the electrification of such things? With ships we had that included too. But there it was more hydrogen, fuel cells. But that was also a sports ship – it was called Humphrey, I think, a company. I don't even remember if they still exist. With aircraft: at the end of my time, in my last years at RLI, we actually carried out projects at airports increasingly. But there it was less about battery-electric drives, rather

more about – yes, exactly. Understood. So now let me take one more good look back. Maybe just as a final question looking back: what's it like – what moved you to go from Berlin to Switzerland? That's a completely different environment. And especially, you say you're a real Berliner and not someone who moved there. How did it come about? And how is life in comparison?

Well, it was actually completely private in nature. We simply had an interest in changing location, and then because my wife comes from Italy, we already had the thought, of course, to move more in that direction. And then it just sort of worked out. Now we're here and really enjoying it. Switzerland has quite a few good advantages over Germany. Many things work differently here, which you first have to adjust to. Some things work maybe better in Germany, and

the other way around. So I wouldn't vote for one country or the other right now. For us it's clear: we're here for now, and it feels good. Yeah, cool. And about your new role and also maybe about how to categorize the company – especially for those who don't know it so well yet: can you say a few words about what your company does and where the connection is as a subsidiary of Swiss Post? And

what drives you day to day, what kinds of topics are on your agenda. Exactly. I'm now at Post Company Cars, and that's the fleet manager of Swiss Post. We manage approximately 17,000 to 18,000 vehicles for Swiss Post. Swiss Post of course delivers letters and packages – both with small three-wheeled vehicles that have been electric for many years now, for several years already. Electromobility

was already a topic at Swiss Post for many, many years, now increasingly so, but of course also through the delivery vans. In Germany you'd probably still say "Sprinter." My colleagues here didn't know much to do with that term, as I understood. They're just the electric delivery vans.

Germany distinguishes.

I need to adjust a bit to this other way of speaking here. We now have more than 1,200 electric delivery vans on the road. We've already electrified the major cities: Bern, Basel, Zurich, Geneva, I think as well. And Biel is another, smaller city here in the area, also completely electric in terms of supply. And that's being rolled out further and further now. But you can see here too: you start where it's easier, in cities where

the routes are perhaps shorter, the topography perhaps not quite as challenging. From 2025 onwards, we've set ourselves the goal of only ordering electric vehicles. They're in use for four to five years. That means by 2030 we want to deliver mail completely electrically throughout Switzerland. Swiss Post also has PostAuto, so buses as well. And that's where electrification is really starting this year. There were already initial approaches in

recent years, and now it should really get going. My role, perhaps before we go deeper into all these things: I work in business development at PostCompany Cars. That means optimizing what we do for Swiss Post, identifying the needs in the field of e-mobility and those that will continue to emerge, and based on that developing new services that we offer not just to Swiss Post, but also to the third-party customer market. We're currently managing 7,500 vehicles and

will grow significantly there in the coming years. We are, so to speak, Switzerland's fleet manager with the largest electric fleet that we manage. And of course with all the challenges that brings. I have so many questions right now, I don't even know where to start. Perhaps starting with this: to my knowledge, it's not that common for a last-mile company to also have a

fleet management company as a subsidiary. Or is that something you're familiar with, that it's actually standard? What's the advantage of really having your own separate subsidiary company managing the fleet? Well, we were founded in 2005, twenty years ago now. I haven't looked into what was discussed back then and what the decision parameters were, so I find that difficult. But if we think about the fact that we're active in the third-party customer market and want to enter into cooperations there, it's certainly easier if you're a separate entity. That's my take on it. And yes, that would be one thought. The other thought is actually that that's not that unusual within Swiss Post in general. We've had several other spin-offs, including one that focuses completely on charging infrastructure: that's the BU ECS, EMobility Charging Solutions, exactly. And they're now going to become the CPO

for Swiss Post. So they'll build, operate and then provide charging stations for the internal stakeholders. Interesting. And the key driver – I know Switzerland isn't part of the EU, so many of the regulatory measures that apply to the EU are different in Switzerland. I'm not that familiar with it either. In the EU, fleet emission limits are, to my knowledge, one of the main drivers for sustainability efforts by various fleets and OEMs, who, let's say, also bring offerings to

the fleets. Is it similar in Switzerland? Are there also fleet emission limits, or is that not really a relevant topic? What are the real drivers of fleet electrification for Switzerland? These fleet emission limits, where the combustion engine ban in 2035 is also discussed – that mainly applies at the OEM level and doesn't directly apply to Switzerland. Still, Switzerland has also imposed emission limits on itself. I'd have to look up the exact figures now.

They apply mainly to importers. There's no domestic automotive industry here, which means everything is imported, and suppliers and dealers are accordingly obliged to bring a certain share of electric vehicles into circulation. So there's also an emission limit for that. I'd have to check again – I think it was something like 118 or 120 grams last year, somewhere in that ballpark, and it's going to drop significantly this year too and

continue accordingly in the coming years, so the pressure is kept high. So that exists too, and I think it's something Switzerland has committed itself to, because even though it doesn't completely adopt everything, it does orient itself towards what EU countries are doing. And Swiss Post – yes, Swiss Post is not bound by these fleet emission limits because, as I said, they apply

to others. But nevertheless, Swiss Post also has a climate and emissions reduction strategy that states that by 2030 mail delivery should be fossil-free, i.e., completely electric, and by 2040 net-zero. That means anything that couldn't be completely electrified by then should be offset by appropriate compensation measures. Okay, the background is probably because Swiss Post doesn't just have vans, or I guess it's mainly thinking in terms of trucks, or the buses – especially the buses, to understand better.

I'm not exactly sure what use case with the buses at Swiss Post is meant. If you could briefly explain that: Swiss Post is a public transport operator. It's unique in the world, isn't it? At least I'm hearing that for the first time. Maybe I'm just uninformed. Well, I can't say exactly whether it's the same in no other country in the world. But it is quite special.

I don't know exactly what the use case with the buses at Swiss Post is meant to be. If you could briefly explain that: Swiss Post is a transport operator, it's public transport. That's unique in the world, isn't it? At least I'm hearing that for the first time. Maybe I'm just uninformed. Well, I can't say exactly whether it's the same in no other country in the world. But it is quite unique.

Definitely, exactly. I also know that it's been discussed from time to time. Nevertheless, that's how it is: we have, I think, 900 or even 1000 buses in operation – I'd have to check that, but that's the order of magnitude. And then there are many partner companies that we work with to deploy in other regions where we win tenders. And that's another huge additional field of activity that essentially makes you

part of your area of responsibility in a certain way. No, we don't – we don't do fleet management for PostAuto AG. That's not the case. That's what you'd call the concession-based area. That's inherently a relatively sensitive business. I think it's similar in Germany. You have to look very carefully there, and of course that's incompatible with third-party customer business. You have to have a very clear, strict separation.

That's exactly why, six years ago, there was quite a scandal, actually also at PostAuto. That's when a lot changed in the management structure and the entire organizational structure to handle it better. Exactly, so: That's a business that stands on its own. Of course we see certain synergies here and there, but we're not involved in PostAuto's electrification itself. And maybe to put it in perspective: you threw a few numbers into the room. That went

a bit too fast for me. So I didn't hold on to that. It was 13,000 total, apart from the buses, so mainly vans, and then 18,000 vehicles.

So we have approximately 5,000 to 6,000 cars and delivery vans, of which now just under 1,300 to 1,400 are electric. And those will, as I said, all be electric by 2030. Electric delivery vans go into this entire fleet, but of course also company vehicles. Those are then regular cars – not cars like in Germany, but passenger vehicles, PW, exactly – also such a specialty. And it's not called public transport either, but is public transport. So some interesting different

terminology that I hadn't heard before. Yes, exactly. And company vehicles and also – we call them Mika vehicles, that is, management staff vehicles – those are then another 200, 300, 400 of those. And with those it's of course interesting again: It's not just about charging at the Post location itself, but of course also about home charging. A new challenge. That was exactly the follow-up question that I wanted to

ask you now: where exactly is being charged. It's mainly at depots and company locations, but not only there. That means at home for the Mika drivers, that is, the company car drivers. Exactly. And then also in public areas or at customers', or how does that work? Is that planned or not? Exactly. So Charged Work currently means mainly charging at the depots for the electric delivery vans, which are charged there at night with 11, maximum 22 kW. Actually less, because in fact

the battery capacity is designed accordingly, the vehicles don't have such high daily mileage and accordingly charging isn't even necessary sometimes. That will change now because locations are being electrified that are more challenging, where there are higher daily mileages, where it's up and down. There's also an interesting aspect here: Of course, in some areas here in Switzerland, all-wheel drive is important to us. And in the all-wheel drive sector, the OEMs haven't brought anything electric to market in recent years. That changed recently, so we can count on also being able to achieve our 2030 goal here. But that was actually – it's still an interesting field. For sure. Exactly. And so they charge at the depot. But there are also applications where vehicles are taken home. That's the case for company vehicles, that's the case for Mika vehicles because they also use them privately.

That's sometimes the case for electric delivery vans, sometimes not. It's not the standard, but it is a case that's more common with fossil-fuel vehicles because of course you don't have to guarantee overnight charging there. The gas station is then just easier to handle than a charging station in public space or at my home. Especially those driving delivery vans might not even have property – you have to mention that too. It's a wage segment that might not be able to afford it.

And yet we're asking ourselves how we can also increase the proportion of home charging there. And exactly, we have solutions for that too. What exactly are your approaches? Because that's something many in the industry are grappling with. How do you get these employees – to clarify for those listening: usually the vans are owned by the company or maybe by subcontractors in a sense. But the

driver is allowed to take them home to make it easier to start the route – or rather to drive to the center where the packages are picked up in the morning, then do the route, go straight home and not back to the depot, where they might have to drive home again from there. That's more comfortable. But there might not be a charging station at home that you can install, and the nearest charging station is then quite far from your own home. And

then you'd probably have to charge ad hoc during a break. That's one approach. What else did you think of? Well, clearly, it won't work for everyone – we're aware of that. Maybe 30% will actually be able to charge their vehicle at home somehow, if at all. And either it's that they own a home and a wallbox can be installed there

Definitely, exactly. I also know that it's been discussed from time to time. Nevertheless, that's how it is: we have, I think, 900 or even 1000 buses in operation – I'd have to check that, but that's the order of magnitude. And then there are many partner companies that we work with to deploy in other regions where we win tenders. And that's another huge additional field of activity that essentially makes you part of your area of responsibility in a certain way. No, we don't – we don't do fleet management for PostAuto AG. That's not the case. That's what you'd call the concession-based area. That's inherently a relatively sensitive business. I think it's similar in Germany. You have to look very carefully there, and of course that's incompatible with third-party customer business. You have to have a very clear, strict separation.

can – then we handled that relatively simply. We can connect the wallbox to our backend and guarantee billing through it. If that doesn't work, for whatever reason, you could of course also look at using an intelligent charging cable at home. In that case it would be an industrial socket. And if that doesn't work either because you live in a rental property – there are then all sorts of options. Either the

building management has already set up charging stations, which is not yet so common in Switzerland. Then you could also use an intelligent charging cable there. On the one hand you have billing via the charging cable, and on the other hand via the wallbox. That way you'd have the data and could combine it with payroll accounting, so to speak. And if none of that works, you have to find other scenarios – either actually fast charging in public spaces. There's also the consideration for electric

delivery vans, that because they perhaps don't need to charge every day, you simply rotate through them. But that's definitely a logistically very challenging case. Or you work here with fast chargers, perhaps even at the depot, so you arrive in the morning, charge quickly, get the load for delivery included, and then drive off again. There are always solutions, but they also always bring their organizational and operational implications with them. And you have to

simply weigh up what's more important. And when you see – we looked at the case once – the delivery vans could be charged better through the fast charger because, as I said, we gave the drivers the vehicles with them. But that also saved more costs: you saved having to set up a larger AC charging park, and you also saved the back and forth driving,

because they already had the vehicle with them. And so you can weigh personnel costs against infrastructure costs. That of course brings quite different possibilities than simply adding up the infrastructure. Exciting. And regarding charging infrastructure – are there also challenges in Switzerland compared to Germany, perhaps fewer or more? When it comes to grid connection capacity: do you have to upgrade the grid because in the electrical installation of existing depots due to insufficient power there's always a need, or are you better or worse positioned

there? Grid connection expansion is always necessary when you want to charge a larger fleet electrically. That's how it is. Does it also take its time? I don't want to say it takes as long as in Germany, but here too you have to factor in that the grid operator still has to be active. What else – yes, exactly, that was one aspect that comes into play. Of course we're also currently looking at the application of stationary storage as well as local

power generation through PV is also a topic. Of course. And that's always weighed against grid connection expansion. So far the focus hasn't been so much on controlled charging, for example, because, as I said, due to the low daily mileage at the sites where we've done this so far, what the charging stations already bring was simply sufficient. But we'll definitely have to become more active there now.

Yes, that's roughly about 50 kilometres that such a vehicle drives per delivery day. Exactly, yes, exactly. That's the scale of it. And in Switzerland it's not as flat as Berlin. There, as you mentioned, you probably started – at the locations where the altitude differences weren't so great. Have you already done simulations on what energy losses you'd have there compared to a location that's rather flatter? If you now take the locations where

you mentioned, where you'd even need all-wheel drive – how strongly have you estimated what additional energy you'd need to plan for there? And you also touched on it: maybe you can elaborate on what the vehicle ranges are now, that you're optimistic about how that's changed. Exactly, well, the locations usually do the calculations themselves, because they of course know their operations and their vehicles best. They

also know what energy demand accordingly arises. And as I said: we haven't started with the steep climbs yet because there were sometimes no vehicles for that either. That is, that was simply the bottleneck to start with. And when it comes to electrifying the other locations, which are also more in rural areas – because, as you just said, we've mainly electrified urban locations so far – when it comes to rural ones, then

it's less about consumption per kilometre that then increases, but simply the daily mileage. And I don't have figures on that right now, how much larger the daily mileages are. You just correctly said that: around 50 km, that's sometimes even a bit less. For cities, on average it's around 50. So we're then a bit above that when it goes into rural regions. And there of course the aspect comes in that we didn't have before: if larger daily mileage is needed, a larger battery is needed, then you can also load less cargo. And there too of course we have to look at what then makes logistical sense. Apart from the fact that the locations then generally have to be able to be upgraded – so it's also about space for charging infrastructure, space for all the vehicles. There are vehicles that are

can – then we handled that relatively simply. We can connect the wallbox to our backend and guarantee billing through it. If that doesn't work, for whatever reason, you could of course also look at using an intelligent charging cable at home. In that case it would be an industrial socket. And if that doesn't work either because you live in a rental property – there are then all sorts of options. Either the

in circulation, because some of them don't even have a parking space at the location. So those are additional aspects that come into play. Exactly, then there are simply the home parkers. We have over 1000, and that's good, because we couldn't accommodate these vehicles with us anyway. But that has also been factored in accordingly over the years. Yes. And then on the charging infrastructure front again: those are mainly

AC slow chargers, and you don't have a need for DC fast charging for the reasons already mentioned, namely that you can actually manage to fully recharge the batteries even with lower power. Well, I did mention the case where you might consider a fast charger after all, where it makes sense from an operational perspective. We might then have a higher charging price per kilowatt-hour, but we might have less effort with personnel who then don't constantly have to bring the car back in the morning and evening

and drop it off again. Exactly. And that way you can weigh personnel costs against infrastructure costs. But that can actually even do the employee a favour, because they save the time of having to drive to the location in the evening, and can then go straight home accordingly. So there are cases here and there always – not always, I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on that, but here and there yes – where there is also an increase in attractiveness simply through the change in drive type and

the fact that you now have to think about how the vehicles are charged at the location. And that's understood correctly, that it's a plan and not yet implemented in a sense – at one location, I think there was a decision to do it. Exactly. And there it runs, as I said, mainly between the new unit that was developed and founded, and the individual locations. And we participate in that because we naturally supply the vehicles, and we get to see that then

there. So to speak, that's the scope we have as fleet managers, that we don't get completely involved in all these considerations and analyses. And then – you already touched on this – the energy aspects of solar plus battery. Have you already gathered experience values there? Or are you also still in the planning stage at certain locations, where you might not want to do grid upgrades? Well, the calculations already exist. I'd have to ask my colleagues about whether it really pays off. But

it does pay off, because we're already saying that at some locations we simply have to go that route. We also have regular coordination meetings where activities at the locations are discussed. And then there's also the idea of putting a container there – either with a grid connection extension that is then mobile, or with stationary storage. This comes about now because we're also looking into truck electrification. So even though we don't really own trucks ourselves,

we're increasingly working with subcontractors. We have trucks in construction logistics, but you probably can't count them on one hand, but they're not huge numbers either. So we're moving into that segment as well, including truck electrification, and fast charging is definitely a must there. And then, as I said, there's a trade-off: grid connection upgrade versus stationary, or local energy generation and storage. And the more electric vehicles charge at a location, or

the more you connect complex systems like solar and battery storage, the keyword is load management. To what extent do you have concerns there, or have you already integrated everything that exists? Is it well prepared, or is that more of a major challenge, managing the loads properly? Well, as I said, because we were able to handle the bulk of the electrification of recent years relatively simply – there were certainly challenges, but so – we

could already be successful with charging even without controlled, intelligent charging, so far we've only played through such things in test cases. There are cooperations with one or another player that you know in Germany. We're now also testing controlled charging. I'd have to check – even bidirectional charging with the three-wheelers. That's then a relatively low capacity, but it gives us the opportunity to simply test: what do we need to pay attention to? What are the

implications for operations? Actually, I don't assume – as I said, based on what I've seen so far, in my experiences also in Germany, you can actually always set the framework conditions for the system in such a way that of course you have full batteries the next day. And nonetheless, everything has to function. That was also an issue at PostAuto, namely that the relevance is significantly higher for us to be informed ad hoc

if charging stations don't work. Because if they don't work and you don't find out about it somehow, the drivers arrive the next morning and the battery isn't charged. Then you can't operate the line. And that's of course very, very unfortunate. So it hasn't happened, but that you have to secure against things like that is becoming increasingly clear now, with the much stronger electrification – that you definitely have such a logging system and that you're informed in good time. And then, keyword

direct charging – you've already asked me that question. I know that margins in the logistics segment are already very tight, which is why cost efficiency is very important. How do you approach the whole topic of TCO optimization and the potential that can be tapped – through better energy management methods, whether it's tariffs from energy suppliers, bidirectional charging, optimization of self-consumption? How important is that for you? And do you perhaps have some other empirical values, particularly on the topic of dynamic electricity tariffs

in combination with bidirectional charging? Yes, so it's an important topic and it needs to come, but it's not here yet. In Switzerland, the framework conditions for it are simply missing. I think last year, mid-year, a project ended where they ran through and tested such cases with the Mobility fleet – the car-sharing provider here in Switzerland, one of the major car-sharing providers in Switzerland – with their electric vehicles. And I think there

the order of magnitude was 600 to 800 francs a year that you can save somehow. And with a larger fleet, that obviously pays off at some point. But for that, the framework conditions have to be in place, and the legislator doesn't have the pace that some others here might wish for. Let's put it that way. And that's why it's not yet a topic for us. We definitely see it as a future topic. And for Swiss Post as well as for our third-party customer market, I think

that will become super relevant. But for that, you first need these framework conditions, and that needs the players who will actually implement it. There are dynamic tariffs. Groupe E is one, I think CKW is the other. There are a few energy supply companies in Switzerland that already offer something like that, but yes, you can count them on one hand. So it's not that much right now. But with the one provider, we're doing our project with the three-wheelers that

will be dynamically charged there as well. Yes, in Germany, as of January 1st of this year, every energy supplier is actually required to offer these dynamic electricity tariffs. The EU made that mandatory for all member states in the Clean Energy Package 2019, which of course leaves Switzerland out. But do you know, if it's mandatory to also offer that in Switzerland, as it is for EU states, or is nothing prescribed in that direction? No,

so Switzerland will find its own solutions, let's put it that way. It's not directly bound, at least not directly. But I also know that there are regular consultations between the EU and Switzerland, so that you commit to certain things here and there. I'm not aware of a roadmap for bidirectional charging for Switzerland, with a timeline for when it should be implemented. Nevertheless, projects like ours now show, or the one that ended last year with the Mobility fleet, that the potential is there and needs to be tapped.

The federal government is also informed about it and will take it into account accordingly in further development. Yes, just to clarify: I meant rather that dynamic electricity tariffs are mandatory. With bidirectionality, to my knowledge, there's still nothing mandatory. Unfortunately, I have to say. There were at least efforts in Germany to get Habeck to at least abolish the tax component, but the network charges still

haven't been. For clarity, perhaps especially for the listeners: with bidirectional charging, you make money by – there are different ways – if you do peak shaving, you would simply feed the energy from the vehicles locally and thereby save yourself the peak load for the year. But if you want to sell the energy, then you have to get back the difference between energy purchases and sales. And if there are still network charges on every transaction,

then it doesn't pay off. However, if you didn't have them, then you could, as one hears it, make money from the fact that certain hours are much more expensive than other hours. And that's at least not yet possible in Germany. That was the background, and in Switzerland that's not the case yet either. Just to clarify. Yes. Does anything else come to mind regarding the challenges that are on your mind in everyday life, that we haven't addressed yet, that

are personally occupying you, where you say, that won't let me sleep at night, or at least it's top of mind when I go to the office every day? Yes. Well, I mean, all the topics we've just discussed aren't really new. We've been talking about them for years. And all the topics I'm currently working on are still a step before that – sort of things we've been talking about for years in Germany, also in Switzerland

talking about. And what's exciting for me is of course simply to see now that implementation requires a lot more, not just these great ideas and maybe some savings in the energy industry. In the end, it's also about processes, it's about automation, it's about data management. And there I can see that every player – whether Post Company Cars, whether it's the entire Post group

is, whether it's other competitors on the market for us – we all still need to put a lot of resources into actually being able to implement data management alone in such a way that we can use it for such use cases. Those are actually the topics that are occupying me right now. So how can we – how should one say – simply streamline the process from the delivery of charging infrastructure to operation and billing

– which then also cannot be considered a non-monetary benefit because they are actual costs, but somehow still need to be reimbursed – how can you implement something like that, but in a way that is scalable, not just working for ten people, but ultimately working for 1000 people, and ideally with just a mouse click. So those are the kinds of things you sometimes don't think about. But those are also sometimes not the showstoppers, but the ones that bring things back down to reality, so to speak. And I find that interesting to see.

Back down to earth, so to speak, and color reality with it. And I find that exciting as well. Beyond the fact that I of course really want to play around with all these applications we just discussed. So solar systems here, stationary storage there, bidirectional charging somewhere else. Sure. The potential is huge. But the backbone is the systems that need to run well now. Already a solid platform that can manage data well

manage data well. I think that's a pain point that troubles many. And it's underestimated, in my view, this data management in practice. Especially, as you say, an idea or a concept is simple in theory. And then, when you have to do it scalably in real time – especially when we're talking about IoT, about charging points, about vehicles that are moving – that's not so easy to manage in the software world. And we're also not just talking

about one system. That's the charging backend. Then there's some ERP system. Then there's an accounting system that also needs to work somewhere. And then a few others in between. And the interfaces simply have to work well. And that just has to settle in. For the sake of time, I wanted to ask just a few final questions and make a quite radical topic change. We've now gone deep into the world of e-mobility. But

with an interesting, perhaps expanded perspective. You had – I saw it on LinkedIn – spoken about the workshop: Mastering Complexity. And especially that meditation is important to you in life. Maybe you can say a few words on the two topics. That sounds so exciting. This Mastering Complexity, especially in the sense of what we just discussed – data complexity. What do you take from that? What can you

perhaps recommend to our listeners? And specifically: I also meditate from time to time. What role does meditation play in your everyday life, and how does it help you in your professional context? Yes. Well, with Mastering Complexity, I'd like to clarify, because it's actually about complexity within the organisation. It was training I did – not just a workshop, but a course over a year

course in which it was about systemic organisational development. And that certainly sensitised me strongly to the different rationales in the company – whether it's now sales and operations, or whether it's product development and finance or whatever – you always have certain dynamics. You have certain conflicts that need to be resolved, that can slow you down, but that can also show potential for increase, improvement and optimisation. And it really opened my eyes to seeing that as opportunities,

as possibilities, and then going into communication with a different mindset, as well as into the design of processes, into the design of: how do I work together with others? That's one aspect. Meditation, I think, is the background noise that ultimately enables me to handle all these things well. It helps you, as you perhaps know, simply to be present, and simply with the – how should I put it – with the challenges

of everyday life not to be overwhelmed by them, but also: how do I assess a situation? How do I assess it when a colleague approaches me and perhaps is expressing something emotionally right now? Do I engage with it, or do I manage to step back and approach it with a certain distance? And exactly, that's what meditation gives me in any case. Yes, cool. On the first point: I think that's also underestimated, how you reach people

– whether it's the drivers or colleagues in all these complexities. It makes total sense that it's not just IT problems, but also human problems. And on the second point: I've always perceived you as a very calm person. I didn't know you meditate, but that definitely makes sense. And I would definitely agree that it makes sense for everyone to engage with meditation at some point. The Buddhists and the Stoics in particular

anticipated a lot there. And with this thought I'd also like to thank you for your time, Norman. I think it was an exciting interview, and I hope the listeners enjoy it too. If there are any comments and follow-up questions, or perhaps you want to point listeners to something, how they can get in touch with you or draw attention to specific content – one last thing. Yes, I'm reachable via LinkedIn. If you have any questions about our activities, especially here in Switzerland,

feel free to reach out to me. No problem at all. I enjoyed it too. Thank you. It was nice to see you again – it's been a while now. And best of luck, certainly with the podcast, but with everything else too. Thank you. Well, OK, right? How do you say it – from Switzerland, in Switzerland it's customary to say

right? You could also say "au revoir". French is relatively well spoken here in Bern, right? French.

Exactly. I need to brush up my French.

Alright. Good. I wanted to do a summary here of my conversation with Norman. He comes from the Fraunhofer Institute, one of the leading research institutes in the field of renewables and mobility transition. He's been involved in exciting projects there, for example the BVG – the public buses – how they were electrified, one of the largest bus fleets in Europe. And also how he then moved to Switzerland and now supports one of the largest Swiss fleets on this topic: electromobility, electrification, particularly various types of vehicles, and how that is managed in a country with

many elevation differences – city and countryside – among other things. And how he looks at innovation, for example the topic of bidirectional charging. And then also – he's a very likeable person and, as I know him, very calm – how he leads himself and others on the team, also with topics like meditation, which I also firmly believe helps. Yes, so I'm pleased that the summary hopefully brought something to the table again. Until next time.

Episode notes

🚀 Elektromobilität im Wandel: Einblicke von Norman Pieniak ⚡ In dieser Folge tauchen wir tief in die Welt der Elektromobilität ein! Norman Pieniak, Flottenmanager bei der Post Company AG in der Schweiz, gibt spannende Einblicke in seine Karriere und die Herausforderungen der elektrischen Transformation großer Fahrzeugflotten. Nach seinem Maschinenbaustudium mit Schwerpunkt Windenergie an der TU Berlin sammelte er über ein Jahrzehnt Erfahrung am Reiner Lemoine Institut, bevor er zur Schweizerischen Post wechselte. Dort arbeitet er heute an der Elektrifizierung der Flotte – ein ambitioniertes Vorhaben mit enormer Tragweite. Norman spricht über zentrale Projekte wie die Entwicklung einer Elektrifizierungsstrategie für die BVG, darunter das E-Metrobus-Projekt, das darauf abzielt, bis 2030 eine vollständig elektrische Busflotte zu realisieren. Wir diskutieren die größten Hürden bei der Ladeinfrastruktur, innovative Lösungen im Energiemanagement, und die Chancen, die bidirektionales Laden für die Energiewende bietet. Zudem gibt Norman wertvolle Impulse zur Bedeutung von Prozessoptimierung, Kommunikation und persönlicher Entwicklung, um Veränderungen in Unternehmen erfolgreich zu gestalten. 🎧 Jetzt reinhören und einen Blick hinter die Kulissen der Elektromobilitätsstrategie eines führenden Logistikunternehmens werfen! Falls Du noch bestimmte Details hervorheben möchtest, sag einfach Bescheid! 🚀