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Smart Charge · 20 February 2025 · 43 min

Ep. 3: Octopus Energy, Dynamische Stromtarife, Smart Meter, KI & intelligentes Laden – Was bremst die Energiewende?

Transcript

Cleaned up from a machine transcript. Translations are machine-generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy Podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

A warm welcome to our panel "AI Meets Energy – What Role Does AI Play in Tomorrow's Energy Supply?" As Emily already announced: My name is Sofia Trojanowska and I work with energy and utility companies in Germany, but also across Europe, on their decarbonisation and digitalisation. Because my goal is to minimise global warming and save our society from global warming. With this grand global objective, we're also approaching this wonderful panel, because AI as a driver of the energy transition is indispensable. AI-based systems are crucial for the

energy sector to master the current transformation of energy supply and make it future-proof. We need more efficient grid management for the increasingly volatile energy grid, predictive maintenance for the increasingly complex energy grid, and also enhanced cybersecurity for digitalisation in our energy grid. Last but not least, individualised customer communication is also important to answer recurring questions efficiently. Because currently we still have limited use of AI in pilot projects, and that's what we want to discuss today. The goal of our panel is to talk in our expert round about long-term solutions, but also current challenges

and perhaps also formulate an appeal to regulators and policymakers to make AI deployment in the energy sector comprehensive. We already had the introduction of wonderful start-ups with Christoph Bingener. And when I'm here at E-world for the first time, I also see incredibly many young, dynamic people. That means there are not only the old players in the energy sector, but also young people who are increasingly innovating and also getting a stage, which is wonderful. This panel – I want to say this again – is being

recorded as part of a podcast, through which we can then also engage in more exchange afterwards. I ask you all for a warm round of applause for our two speakers: Claudio Geyken, CEO and founder of RiDERgy,

and Bastian Gerold, CEO of Octopus Energy Germany.

Thank you very much. It's wonderful that you're here on our stage today.

RiDERgy is a provider of B2B energy management software for cost optimisation of electric fleets. A wonderful new venture, a great technology that we want to discuss now. Thank you for being here. Thank you. And also thanks to Bitkom for the invitation. Octopus Energy is a globally active energy tech company, a pioneer of renewable energy solutions and provider of the zero energy cost home, also one of the largest investors in renewable energy in Europe, which we urgently need. The portfolio amounts to 8.4 billion euros, as I've researched. Welcome. Thanks, thank you very much. Very pleased to be here.

Good, then let's dive right into our discussion – nice and relaxed. I wanted to know from you how you're currently using AI in your companies. Does it already have a key role? Is it moving in that direction? How does it look? Let's start with RiDERgy. Just to clarify – the question is: Can you repeat how you're currently using AI in your company? Okay. Yes, so perhaps a bit of context for background. It's about us optimising energy both at the depot and at the company site of businesses, but then

also prospectively at various locations – as the previous speaker also teased a bit. A major problem we now have with regard to the energy and mobility transition is that we need to understand how each individual vehicle is used – whether by an employee, by a logistics operator, whether it's a bus, etc. For this, we didn't have to do much in the past, it wasn't necessary when refuelling. But in the energy world, as we've already seen a lot today and tomorrow, it's essential that this data is processed and the

prediction is precise and can be assessed with risks – mainly so that you can make predictions for each individual vehicle, both in a fleet and in the home setting. For this, it's essential that AI is used. It can also work differently – it can also work without AI, let that be said. You can also operate initially with rules of thumb and simpler rules. But if we want to do optimisation well, that's an essential building block of RiDERgy as well. Secondly: because we operate as a module, if you will,

in this new software world of the energy world, it's essential that we're able to cooperate with other assets as well. This data and these AI algorithms for predicting mobility must work in conjunction with battery storage, with the prediction of a solar installation and with the energy markets and grids in harmony. Reinforcement learning is also essential there. So we're talking – just for understanding perhaps for those who aren't so deep into AI – not about LLMs and language models, but really about the

that happened even before OpenAI. Deep learning and reinforcement learning as the essential models that are relevant to us. Understood. That's incredibly interesting. And I can also imagine that data integration naturally plays a very significant role as well. We'll come back to that again later. And to you as well, Bastian: How are you already integrating AI into your business model? Well, we have several approaches there. I think you can roughly cluster it into two areas. One is really the interaction with the customer. We

focus very strongly on building close customer relationships and really delivering top service. Also because we say: The customer that I'm supporting excellently today on a standard load profile with a normal electricity contract is also someone we can take with us into the future of the energy transition, when it comes to much more complex products. Where do we use AI now? For example: When we have customer inquiries, we have language models that help us pre-evaluate a customer's history. Everyone knows this: You call your energy supplier and

you have a problem. And every time you have to describe the entire problem again, because the contact person you had, you're now speaking to for the first time. Then you explain again from A to Z what happened. There were emails exchanged, there were different phone calls in between. With us it works so that our system that we work with aggregates that. When you call, the agent, our customer service representative, suddenly has an overview: What has happened so far? What is the problem? And at

which step are we? That means the entire conversation is much shorter, more precise and dealt with more quickly for the customer. We can offer higher service and answer more customer inquiries. This applies to phone calls, but also to emails, where AI can help us find the right measures more quickly and tailor the responses more precisely to the customer. That was the customer side. On the other side we see the development that we have. And we see this here

effectively at every point: renewable energies, flexibility, much more complex systems. How do we plan all of this? How do we deal with the fact that electricity simply no longer always comes from the socket the same way and is consumed the same way, that we have EVs that should be charged at certain times and shouldn't be charged at certain times? There are considerable amounts of data from the grid operator, weather data that you bring in, consumption data that you should bring in. Managing this amount of data and purchasing electricity in an optimized way based on it, respectively

stabilizing the grid, is extremely difficult for humans – it's actually too complex. What such a thing is a particularly good task for are AI models. They can do that particularly well. And we already use them today for that. Yes, super interesting. I also did a bit of research. Magic Inc. as a tool is also something that you use and developed. And indeed, response times are shortened and service quality is elevated. And I mean, for all of us it's like this: When we pick up the phone

and call somewhere, we want to be processed, handled and advised quickly and not waste time unnecessarily with waiting times. Wonderful. Then let's go into the main part of the discussion: the current challenges. To you, Claudio: When we think about operating costs for electric vehicles, they're not insignificant. Can you explain to us how the AI solution now reduces operating costs and potentially also generates revenue in the future? So, is it more about the solutions first? Okay.

Well, I've already hinted at the challenges a bit. Just briefly in more depth so you understand the challenge: Making this prediction – as Bastian also mentioned, this still happens partly manually. A fleet manager sometimes had to tell his drivers: plug in, plug out – actually manually. That can of course still work with a few vehicles. However, this then has to be controlled automatically. That's a big challenge. The grid connection capacities that are available are usually around 80 kW –

a typical value. With a certain small number of charge points that still works without energy management, otherwise the fuses threaten to blow. And that's a huge problem, which is why the pain is simply very great, especially for fleets with more than a few vehicles. Operating costs, especially for logistics companies where margins are very low, present a major problem: they want to minimize TCO. That comes through peak shaving, better energy procurement as well as solar and battery storage combinations – those are the challenges that

we as a company still face. Which fleets have enough electric vehicles that it's worthwhile to minimize costs? That's a big challenge. However, we also see that there are more and more fleets in Germany – especially the large corporates sometimes have hundreds to thousands of charge points at their sites. These are the preferred customers where we're optimistic we can achieve up to 50% energy savings – realistically and very conservatively calculated more like 10 to 20%. And when bidirectional charging comes, that will also

which will become a huge driver in terms of energy savings. Another problem we're addressing: conventional legacy systems worked with local controllers and had to operate heavily with local hardware and Modbus – for those who are very deep into the technical side – protocols. Newer, more cloud-based systems and real-time control of systems is also one of the core solutions we're bringing to market, where we're not as tightly bound to always operating only with local hardware.

Yes, very exciting. So especially Vehicle-to-Grid, to drill down into that a bit more now: What do you think, when is the moment? When will we see Vehicle-to-Grid in Germany? Should I go into a roadmap and the challenges now or later? Now. Okay. So bidirectional charging, let's say as an umbrella term, and V2G as one of the ways to implement it. There are, as I see it, three dimensions. First, there are the tax levies, which fortunately were at least abolished in Germany recently by Habeck. However, the grid fees remain, and that

kills the business case. In other words: regulation still needs work at the grid fee and tax level. Then secondly, we're talking about interoperability. Those are protocols – without going too deeply into detail – but ISO 15118-20, OCPP, etc. There are several protocols that haven't yet been fully implemented by all stakeholders to achieve this. And then there's the electrical engineering level, where we need certain charging stations with AC/DC and vehicles with AC/DC that can do this, but not yet across the board. That means to enable bidirectionality in general,

you have to work on these levers. Certain use cases are already possible now. Vehicle-to-Load, I think almost every electric vehicle has that by now. That's pretty cool, so where you can discharge the vehicle for needs like camping or other applications. And the other use cases: Vehicle-to-Building will come next, and V2G will come last, where you then also have to make certain changes in market communication. Yes, market communication – a huge challenge. Now one final question for

you, so for this package: What hurdles do you see in implementing your technologies at customers? Are those large investments? Is it the process, is it data? What do you say? The practical implementation hurdles. Yes, so data is definitely a topic. In the mobility world there are various systems that are used or not used: telematics, ERP, TMS – so Enterprise Resource Planning, keyword SAP, and TMS. Fleet management systems – logistics companies in particular use those a lot. And there are many, many systems, so

having a tool that abstracts that and makes it available in an API – that's a topic that keeps us very busy: how to harmonise and bundle this mobility data. And then know-how is also a topic that my predecessor also mentioned – I would completely agree with that. We're a bit the geeks in the energy scene here, as soon as you then actually try to speak with the fleet manager in the mobility world. There's still a lot of education needed, which isn't meant in a bad way. But that is

in terms of timing for solutions like ours very difficult at times. You really have to find the right person who is also able and willing to put it on the agenda. But I believe we're staying on the ball and are convinced that the more electric vehicles there are in every fleet on the market, the greater the pain – and then we're ready. Understood. Yes, very interesting. Thank you very much. Now to you, Bastian. Your zero-energy-cost house is indeed an exciting approach for sustainable

living. How does AI support the optimisation of energy consumption and storage here? You've already mentioned quite a bit, like energy management systems and so on. But I'd now like to understand again how that happens in this zero-energy-cost house – or in our homes. Can you describe that a bit? Yes, certainly. The topic is – for those who don't know it: our Zero Bills House, our zero-energy-cost house. That's a concept – and not just a concept, it really exists – where a PV system, storage and heat pump are installed in the house. We have a smart meter

and we then have the technology platform – we use Kraken – which essentially optimises the generation, consumption, purchase and sale of electricity to the market in such a way that the people who live in this house pay €0 for their electricity bill and consequently also for their heating bill, because they have a heat pump. That's designed for the next six to ten years perspectively. That's naturally a very complex setup. It's about optimising precisely, because of course we don't want any loss of comfort in the

houses. It's not about somehow reducing or controlling, which we in Germany really like to do – this path via the control box that we want to take, §14a, reducing and taking things away from people when we see a problem in the system – but rather to go and say: How can I see this building as a virtual power plant? How can I implement the optimisations within it, which alone can already mean that you optimise all these components against each other? And that doesn't just have to do with current moments in

the energy market, but also with forecasting. How is the weather developing right now? How do we see – now again in February – the weather has an extreme influence on the electricity market price. The weather has an influence on how strongly renewables are generated or not. And you have to factor all these points into such optimisations. And for that you need an intelligent system that takes care of it.

Yes, absolutely exciting. Especially when you imagine that you could live in a zero-energy-cost home in the future. Five years ago, ten years ago, you wouldn't have been able to really grasp either of these solutions yet. And now it's actually almost reality already, right? Also to you, Bastian: when you scale your business model – you started on the UK side, in England, in 2015, and you're already huge there. You have a considerable market share, you're the number-one energy market player in England. How will this develop in Germany? What is your vision for the German market?

Actually, in Great Britain we've grown from an energy startup to the largest energy supplier in the country within eight, or rather now nine years. And that's really across customers – so standard electricity customers and energy customers. But we also do EV leasing, we do heat pump installation, we do smart meter installation, we do solar. We have innovative concepts like Zero Bills Home or like Intelligent Octopus, which goes a bit in your direction – just for individual households: the optimisation, the charge optimisation of individual EVs. We want to do that here in Germany too. That's our approach, to say globally: we want to bring everything that

we've tested in Great Britain or also in other markets into the respective markets. We want to become one of the largest energy suppliers here too, as far as energy customers are concerned. But we're already bringing innovative solutions to market here for a year now – precisely that innovative charging, the Zero Bills Home. We install heat pumps nationwide. We install smart meters, announced here at the trade fair that we're offering smart metering services to drive the whole smart metering topic forward in Germany. We have quite large

scaling targets. Very ambitious. And smart meters are important – we'll come back to that in a moment. When I now hear about the challenges – data interoperability, different industries that actually need to work together – I see automotive as one industry, very important for Germany of course, manufacturing, then the energy industry and then IT somewhere in this triangle as well, as a connecting link. And when I hear the challenges from you: we still don't have the smart meter rollout yet in some cases, so that we can use the data to

work even faster and more intelligently. But also with you: data for fleet management. Which stakeholder would you most like to talk to in order to bring about changes? Funny question, Claudio. Yes, probably the one who's most powerful in Germany – maybe Friedrich Merz then, to steer him a bit in the right direction, to let him set the right priorities, not fusion energy – and then maybe the Federal Network Agency, so that we do more in that direction there too. And then maybe also the most influential at the municipal utility level, because

I may not have mentioned this: dynamic electricity tariffs have actually been mandatory since January of this year. The Clean Energy Package 2019, passed by the EU Parliament, obligated every member state to actually implement this by 2021, to implement dynamic electricity tariffs. Now we're in 2025. Now actually every energy supplier should be doing it, and de facto most of them still haven't done it. So actually something illegal, which in my view is just not acceptable, especially in the country where if we cross the road on red, we already get told off

about it. And well, there are innovative energy suppliers here. But they're sometimes also loyal to their other energy supplier first. We're not an energy supplier, we're a software provider. We're naturally then dependent on the municipal utility or the respective energy supplier, who then has to give such incentives to the fleet. Otherwise the fleet gets nothing out of it – as an example. That's a major challenge. And there are more examples. But very, very exciting. Very good. So that's what a forum is about too: to critically question

and to see who you need to speak with to bring about changes that are also constructive. Also to you: who would you most like to exchange ideas with to drive further changes forward? That's an exciting question, because that's the problem we have in Germany: this extreme fragmentation that we have in the market. We always have extremely many of everything – many grid operators, many energy providers, many basic suppliers, many municipal utilities. Everyone has some kind of topic in it. Everyone has a stake. Everyone has interests that are also sometimes in conflict

with each other. I see that as the main challenge, because for us to be successful with the energy transition, we need to bring about a real system change. We can't carry on as we are. We can't pretend that the energy transition or the new energy system is something we could dock onto our old systems. That will actually cost us several hundred billion more. Or we'll have to expand the grid so much more that it becomes possible. If we really want to say we want to go in the direction of renewables and renewable electricity from renewable sources is the cheapest that

we've ever had, and it's getting cheaper every year. But how we use it becomes difficult in our systems. And if, for example, we have a 2% rollout with smart meters in Germany, we have a problem, because that's the core of such a renewable energy system, an energy system that's based on flexibility. So who would I want to talk to? Of course, you end up ultimately with politics and regulation, with whom you need to discuss this. What do we need to change to really set the course? And we need bold decisions, and

it's more about synergies, but also about the potential of AI. If we remember back when ChatGPT suddenly appeared, we were all like, "Okay, oh no, AI. We're afraid of it. What's going to happen with it?" But ultimately many people use ChatGPT and communicate with the tool. And that evil spirit of AI has kind of disappeared, I feel. It's a theoretical question, but do you feel that because we're now using AI more and more on a personal

level through ChatGPT, that communication with and through AI can be improved, which in turn could improve the interoperability problem with many of the systems? Can we trust AI now?

I'm happy to say something about that. So yes, I think we should actually be quite a bit further along. It's coming slowly now, more and more people are using it. But I think if you look around at your surroundings: Who is really actively using AI? Who really manages to get some benefit out of it? It's still far too few people. And I think you framed it quite nicely at the beginning. That's also a bit of the German psyche:

Something new comes along, it's first unsettling. Let's look at it very, very, very carefully. Maybe we need to put up a little fence around it and observe it first, instead of embracing it and saying, "Cool, there's something new. This is a technology solution with which we can move something forward. Now let's try it out first." And that's on one hand for AI. But if we stay with the energy business: We've talked about it. All these flexibility topics – in many heads and in many

conversations it's still about: How do we manage that? How do we control it? How do we steer and regulate it, instead of saying, "Hey, what are the benefits we can leverage?" People will live in houses in the future and pay nothing for their electricity and heating. Those are the benefits we're moving towards. So at that point: I think we all still need to become more interactive with these media, with AI, and

apply them to really get out of this buzzword thing – everything now has an AI, everything has an AI solution, whether it makes sense or not, we just slap it on because it's definitely good to write it on the front – but rather: Where are the use cases where it actually brings something? And that's really through trying things out. We have to do it, you have to do it in trial cases, not just in theoretical concepts. And that's another topic, I think, where we Germans are relatively

good at: talking about what we could do if something else had happened. These conversations also towards politics saying, "Yes, if this and that legislation were to change, then we all could." But we don't do it, because we're not allowed to. Rather, going ahead – especially us as companies in this forward-looking industry we're operating in – and saying, "We also invest something in lighthouse projects that perhaps aren't yet based on a hundred percent product-market fit, that aren't yet one hundred

percent covered by the government and by regulation, but where we say: Okay, but we can already prove this is going in the right direction. This is something people out there want, and this is something that advances the energy transition for us." V2G is such a case. We've been talking about it for years now. I still haven't seen any large-scale trials where an economic benefit is actually worked out. If we have that once in a region, then we'll relatively quickly

see that we can switch from these theoretical conversations of "What are the problems we have?" to "Amazing, what worked well?" What also comes to mind, broken down briefly: AI as an umbrella term – the history of AI actually goes back to the 1950s. Machine learning came at some point, I think in the nineties, and especially Amazon or Netflix – the recommendation algorithms are based on machine learning. And then at some point came what we've basically been using for years, perhaps without

really being conscious of it. And then now we're using ChatGPT and LLMs much more actively, since they've existed. And I think these touchpoints create fewer fears. And that's good. And in the energy world I would say we'll have certain touchpoints, similar to OpenAI, that are much more active. And certain things will happen in the background. And then, as already seen with autonomous driving with Waymo in San Francisco or elsewhere, people get used to it extremely quickly and then don't really think about it anymore. That's how

where I believe the vision also looks at how AI is developing, that it becomes a kind of internet. And suddenly we've got used to it. We've got used to the smartphone. And then it would be hard to imagine anything else. And these dangers, I wouldn't completely dismiss them either, that AI – there are leading AI researchers and Elon Musk etc. who are thinking about this and also see it as a risk. So I wouldn't deny the risks completely. We really would have to, and in

that sense, good again for the EU. I think the EU is always criticised, but it's right that we try to create a certain regulatory framework and foresee certain risks. And especially in the critical infrastructure of energy we also have to cushion certain risks. Nevertheless I'm back with Bastian, that you say: Let's just tackle and try things out. At certain scales it's also good and you mustn't over-regulate. Understood. You always see that in the United States the

big exponential digital business models come to market and there they're also tried out very boldly and then a few years later they're present in a similar way in Europe. But I think it would be very good if we just flipped the coin a bit and also became very actively innovative ourselves with our excellent talents in Europe. We'll stay with you now as well, Claudio. When I think about your technology – and I also mentioned it very briefly – can your technology also be connected to other stakeholders in the framework of a VPP

in the market? Because I'm also hearing a lot at the fair: Everyone is building their own. But rather like Android or Linux, open standards are essential, otherwise we have chaos and not a symphony that really has to interact with each other. And simply put: I think many people have good standards on their radar. And I also think innovative players have to think openly and not isolate themselves and think they'll do everything alone. Yes, I'm completely with you on that

in the wake of.

Let's move on to the next question. Back to your zero-cost energy house.

I see these energy communities, which we've also had anchored in the Renewable Energy Act since 2023, as a very sensible synergy partner for, for example, zero-energy house concepts. How do you observe these renewable energy communities in Germany? We have between 800 and 1,700 citizen energy communities in Germany. Is that a group that inspires you, and do you inspire them back? So now in the big context of synergies. I would even zoom out a bit more in the context of synergies, because of course it's positive. And it's also good. These energy communities have already

shown on a small scale where the future is heading. Namely, that through networking and using the resource of energy and a sharing and the optimisation thereby for an overall group, you leverage something that you don't have if you do it individually. But we have to think bigger. It doesn't help us if we have many of these energy communities that then don't communicate with each other again. And that also goes back a bit to your first question before. It's a bit like:

Where do we need to go? If everyone here builds their own solutions now, is that a problem? Do we have to impose some standards on it? We have to, I think. And the insidious thing is: You think you have a complex problem, now we have to start developing more complex regulations, install even more difficult stages and ensure that we can control it all. The reality is different. We won't be able to – unless we move towards state directives – slow down the innovation power that we

see at every stand. And that's also good. We need every single one. But what we do need is a system where you can, a bit like you said, dock on, where you can use all these different solutions collectively. And it has a lot to do with the system itself not being allowed to be fragmented. Communication across the system has to work. For example, smart meters have to be installed everywhere. And the data has to be available to everyone, so that everyone who

has such a product can connect to it. The signals with which this system works have to be relatively simple – not very complex and very multi-layered in the control, because then it becomes difficult again – but for example the price alone. By going ahead and saying, we have the electricity price on one hand, which tells us how much renewable or cheap electricity production we currently have, so dynamic tariffs on one hand, but on the other hand we also need an indication of what's

happening with the grid right now. Yes, and for example dynamic grid fees would be very useful there. With just these two elements alone you can already give very strong signals into the market, where then everyone who has their own VPP or charging network or something can work with it. Because I know right now: How much is the electricity? How much does the electricity cost? How much does the grid give me for now providing flexibility, by prospectively giving energy back with vehicle-to-grid and other solutions or currently taking less. And when I do take it,

it's simply more expensive. Then I have to be aware: Is it worth it to me? For someone else, the interest grows to say: Oh, we have an innovative set-up where we have electricity that we can make available. And in this mix we create an energy system, not with isolated solutions. I think we have two approaches in Germany. One is always a bit: Oh, we have to think centrally, and the grid operators dictate what happens. And on the other side, every single homeowner starts

to make themselves virtually energy-independent with PV and a battery. And I think that's exactly where the problem lies. A house with storage and a solar system is a great flexibility option. The storage, the car that's parked there – you can also use that to stabilise the grid. But if the person tries to isolate themselves as much as possible from the grid, then they're all individual houses trying to optimise themselves. And if it doesn't work out, they have a huge problem and then suddenly have to fall back on the grid.

The grid isn't prepared for that. And we need to somehow figure out how to solve the problem – to get everything together into a connectivity solution. That's the way forward, understood. But if I think about it now: Would you say that these energy communities will increase in Germany? Or will they stay at the same level? What's your feeling? I think they'll probably increase if there are incentives for them. We'll see now, when we have the new government, how

things will continue in the long term in such directions – whether these incentives will remain, whether there will be other incentives that go in a different direction. But I think per se it's a good thing. But I don't think the goal should be to say: Okay, we'll make sure we have as many individual energy communities as possible, and the rest will then have to figure out how to manage. Understood. Wonderful.

We're now looking together into the future, at how the vision of the energy transition and energy supply will shape up in Germany. And when I listen to you, there are various hurdles and various levers. But now quite concretely: What would you say needs to happen so that AI isn't just applied in these isolated solutions and pilot projects, but across the board in the energy sector? Do we now need specific regulations in Germany for the energy industry regarding AI? Or are there certain projects that you've seen or heard about

that can now also be implemented and initiated? At the cost of this data privacy, we can achieve significant savings, as Bastian mentioned earlier. We can only realise these potentials if we also have this data comprehensively. And secondly, all these data systems also need to provide more harmonised API interfaces that make it possible to easily obtain these transport management systems etc., which I mentioned earlier, load profiles and so on. Those would be the two things that come to mind most.

Thank you. I think the task of politics and regulation is to prepare infrastructure for us.

Whether that's the roads and bridges on one side – on the other side it's the grids or, and this is the smart meter point again. We simply have a point here in Germany where we've been talking about the same topic for ten years. We should finally start with the smart meter rollout. We're still at 2%. The other countries around us are at 90, 95%. They're finished. Britain is at 60%. But they started later than

everyone else and have now switched on the turbo. That's where we need to get to now as well. And we need a very clear solution for that, because we have so many conflicts of interest around it – who owns these metering devices, who should install them, who then applies the tariff and the electricity. We need a very clear nationwide solution from regulation on how we advance this rollout, where it's clearly regulated how you install simple, intelligent devices cost-effectively in people's

basements. So that's already the core. Regarding AI – which was also part of your question – it's like this: I always think when politics interferes in the technology landscape, especially software, things get messy. There too, to create foundations, to create infrastructure, to say: How should the data flow? Do we have centralised data storage where all data from all smart meters flows in and everyone else has access to it, as we have in other countries? Or are they all small isolated solutions

where everyone tries to do their own thing? That's where influence exists. How then the individual providers and players in the energy market use AI with which software solutions – there you can certainly put a broader bracket around the larger AI question, which you mentioned. What about ethical concerns? But in the actual implementation it's like with all technological things: whoever has the better solution faster will also be more likely to win in the market. And we have to be careful that we don't try through unnatural hurdles to

to distort it, because we simply have players in the market who say: "We don't want to go along with that" or "We can't go along with that." But just because we can't go along or because we don't want to invest, does that mean nobody else is allowed to do it? Then we're just moving backwards again. And then we'll stay stuck at 2% smart meter rollout and with an energy system that isn't fit for the future. One more thing occurred to me: as quickly as possible, dynamise the dynamic grid fees that were mentioned earlier – as far as possible – so that when

we have this data available from the various branches – the thousands of grid branches that we have in Germany – then the prices are dynamic and dynamic electricity tariffs are offered by all energy suppliers. Then AI can also reach its full potential, and of course vehicle-to-grid as well. Plus remove the necessary barriers that I mentioned earlier as quickly as possible. Yes, you've actually pre-empted my last question. I wanted to ask very specifically: What do you wish for from politics and regulation? But you've

actually already articulated perfectly what needs to be done. And that's why we're definitely taking your points on board and also appealing here to the future. So now I can already thank you and briefly summarise this panel. AI is a driver for cost-efficient and sustainable energy supply. We have dynamic electricity tariffs that now need to be rolled out further and also need to be adopted in order to create transparency for customers and really create a new energy vision for Germany and Europe. A lot is going into

self-supply and autonomous self-sufficiency concepts, but it should also be about connecting and about harmonising and orchestrating these individual systems, which will then allow us to further optimise our consumption. I'm noting: synergies are important between the individual players. We've also talked about smart meters and vehicle-to-grid concepts in the future. But the lack of interoperability is essential – that must

be resolved, and also the compatibility of the individual systems, whether in the passenger car sector or in the smart meter sector. In some cases there are of course very complicated requirements, and these simply need to be broken down systematically. All in all, in short: data communication between the individual stakeholders needs to be improved so that we can make faster progress with the energy transition and also advance great, futuristic, innovative business models in Europe and Germany. We can really be proud that we have such great thinkers and such great innovators, and now they just need

to be pushed even further. That was this episode, recorded live from E-world, with Octopus Germany CEO Bastian Girodt. I hope the discussion about smart meter rollout, the challenges posed by AI regarding data access and data protection, and the regulatory hurdles for bidirectional charging has given you new insights. It's not easy with less than 2% smart meter rollout. And we absolutely need an agnostic view of the issue when it comes to control, particularly that you can also approach it via the charging stations without a smart meter gateway

and less excessive data protection, so that AI can be approached more efficiently and the cost efficiencies can then also be achieved. Especially now, when energy costs are so top of mind for everyone and Germany is suffering under these costs, we need a bit more pragmatism in that sense. And we also need companies that increasingly take on risks and are able to innovate faster, and regulations that change more quickly and for the better. Stay tuned for more

exciting insights into the future of energy – until next time.

Episode notes

Live von der E-World: In dieser Folge spreche ich mit Bastian Gierull, CEO von Octopus Energy Deutschland, über die dringendsten Herausforderungen der Energiewende. Warum steckt der Smart Meter Rollout bei unter 2 % fest? Welche regulatorischen Hürden behindern bidirektionales Laden? Und wie kann KI effizienter eingesetzt werden, wenn wir Datenschutz pragmatischer betrachten? Eine spannende Diskussion über die Zukunft der Energie, mit konkreten Lösungsansätzen für eine smarte, flexible und kosteneffiziente Stromversorgung. 📢 Hört rein und erfahrt, wie wir die Energiewende wirklich beschleunigen können!