Ep. 23: Michael Clarke eTrucker app founder on Driver‑Built Tools, Truck‑Ready Charging and Scaling e‑Trucker

0:11 Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

0:39 Welcome back to Smart Charge. Today we're getting practical about heavy-duty electrification with Michael Clarke, who co-created the eTrucker from Electro Trucker. A driver-built app that helps e-trucker drivers find truck-suitable charging across Europe, with filters for truck bases, overnight parking, and realistic truck-specific routing. Before that, he worked at companies that are super interesting, like Tesla, Porsche, and NIO, where we also dive deep into and learn about the differences and the interesting projects he worked on - for example, the smart charging NIO app. The

1:18 team behind eTrucker didn't build this from a desk. Co-founder Tobias Wagner logged 100,000 electric truck kilometers in a single year to shape the tool. At launch, the database covered 575 truck-ready charging parks, and community contributions quickly added 100 more - a driver-verified data set the team describes as Europe's largest for truck-capable sites. eTrucker went live in 2024 with a three-person team, and the app is now available on Android with a few thousand installs. And on iOS today. Michael and I dig into how driver feedback

2:00 improves data quality, what truck-suitable really means on the ground, and what's next for bookings, live data, and e-truck innovation. Buckle up, let's roll. All right, Michael, nice that you're here today. How are you? Thank you. I'm wonderful today. You came from Munich all the way to Berlin to have some business meetings, right? And of course to record this. Yeah, looking forward to it. So before we start and talk about all the things around the Electro Trucker app, which is your current focus,

2:33 let's understand a bit who the person Michael is. What's your background? Thank you. Yeah, so I grew up mainly in Germany - before that a little bit in America - but went to university in Munich, studied political science, finished that, and then decided I want to understand more of the world, so I started physics and studied a bachelor's in physics. That was a lot of fun, very stressful time, and I enjoyed that. And then I

3:07 had a great opportunity to do an internship with Tesla in Munich at the supercharger team, and had a wonderful year there. Learned so much back in 2016 about e-mobility, and Tesla was on a roll back then. Really grateful for that experience. And then I got an opportunity at Porsche in Stuttgart to launch their global destination charging program - AC chargers mainly at hotels and other luxury locations. Running that for three years was also

3:43 an awesome opportunity. And then I got into vehicle product management at Porsche for all the electric vehicles and hybrids, and also future vehicles - specifying the charging performance, where the charge port is, the route planning, all that fun stuff. Really thankful for that. And after that I wanted to come back to Munich and found an opportunity with NIO, where I also did product management but more on the ecosystem side - wall box chargers, a high-

4:17 powered charger - we'll maybe get into that stuff later. That was a great three years of my life, and now I'm off to new adventures with eTrucker. So - and how much would you say are you American, and to what extent? You have a certain definition for yourself? I feel German, even though I'm not German - I'm Austrian and American and Irish. But yeah, I feel German,

4:55 but my dad's from New York and I enjoy it there as well. Right. And the times at Tesla - you were there in 2016. Can you elaborate on what it was like back then? Before the Model 3, I understand. What were the challenges in those days, if you remember? So, getting the word out. One of my jobs was building the

5:26 destination charging network there as well, very similar work. Cold calling hotels, explaining to the front desk what Tesla is - we make electric cars - and usually they were somewhere in the Alps and hadn't heard about electric cars or Tesla at all. So explaining the story, convincing people of electric mobility and that it's the future. It kind of also convinced myself, and I got good

6:00 at pitching that. We really grew the destination charging network, and I also helped out with the supercharger network a little bit. Just the amount of professionalism and optimization, really cutting costs - that was really impressive. I think it's awesome what the Tesla supercharger team has done over the last few years - truly an unmatched network. Great to have had a front-row seat to that. Did you meet Elon Musk

6:34 or Philip Schroeder?

6:38 No, some of the European leadership, but of course that ethos was there and Elon was sort of in the back of everybody's mind. The spirit there was really infectious, and it was just great being part of that team. I'm still friends with many of them, and it's a great community. And what's the latest on the supercharger network? There was this period - I think it was last year - where Elon, I think, wanted to shut it

7:12 down somehow. Is there, do you know what's the status there or what happened exactly afterwards? So the way I understood it is that I guess Elon wanted to make an example of somebody, and it unfortunately was the Supercharger team. In the end, I think actually it was a bigger story than maybe what actually happened, especially in Europe. I guess there was downsizing, but not to the extent that you heard about in America. But it's an interesting

7:46 question, the role of an OEM in the charging industry. That's, I think, one of the core questions that every carmaker is battling with. Many have sort of followed the same game plan, many have come to similar conclusions, and are now maybe changing their approach. So that's always an interesting question. What are you thinking about when you say changing their approach? So there was Ionity and that sort of coming together, building out infrastructure, getting the basics right.

8:23 Then there's always the question of, OK, do you have your own MSP, or mobility service provider, or the charge card essentially. What's the role of that, or do you share those resources? And then we see in the premium segment more of these premium charging lounges popping up, more and more from Porsche and Daimler. I don't think everybody's sure exactly what the long-term role will be, but definitely a lot has

8:55 happened, and it was a great time to experience and learn. And then talking Porsche - in those days you said you worked on route optimization, destination charging. What was that about? Yeah, so I was a product manager for charging. On the vehicle side, the Taycan was a very special car, of course. First car with 800 volts, first car with Plug & Charge. The first car really was - in the beginning not so much, but later on then

9:28 a very good turbocharging planner, is what we called it. Getting that right, sort of understanding what the users' needs are, what they want to see, what is a good route - the definition of that is sort of very difficult to grasp or to define in software. Some of those learnings now also translate over to what I'm currently doing, so I really enjoyed that. But also back then we had to imagine what the future is like,

9:57 what charging speeds would be coming. The Taycan launch was 270 kW peak power, and we couldn't imagine 300 or 400 kW. And now some of the Chinese cars are just coming with 500 or more kW. So imagining the future was really challenging and fun. But also looking into payments - what role does Plug & Charge play - those kind of questions were a lot of fun. And lastly the

10:32 whole topic of fast-charging performance. So not just hitting that peak speed, but sort of preconditioning the battery, making sure all the things are optimized so that you can really charge quickly. Because everybody says it depends on so many factors - that's partly true. In the end, it's only battery temperature and SOC that's really going to determine how fast it charges at the appropriate charger. Yeah, we'll come back to that. And then, before today, so to say - NIO -

11:04 you said ecosystem, so can you elaborate? It was especially working around charging aspects, I understand. What type of challenges or topics were you mostly looking at? Sure, so on the one hand, just starting from a very simple AC home charger - getting that ready, and NIO makes all their own chargers. In Wuhan, actually, there's a factory that makes the chargers, and getting those certified and ready for the European market, having the

11:39 appropriate app and the functions there. I also decided early on to take the whole topic of smart charging sort of out of the wallbox and more into the car itself. We developed a NIO smart charging vehicle function. NIO is also one of the biggest charge point operators in the world, and in Europe we also had about 100 DC fast chargers up in the Nordics. Operating those, getting the

12:11 hardware right, integrating a credit card terminal - that was a lot of fun. And also on the battery swapping station, we're also charging batteries there, and the topic of calibration law, for example, is relevant. So you had to have a look at all these aspects that you're just referring to. Sure, and especially having the role of - NIO has a battery swap technology, meaning that the cars can swap their

12:43 batteries out quickly. How does that change what the needs of the vehicle are - that was quite fun. And when you say you preferred to look at the vehicle for smart charging instead of the AC charger, what was your reasoning or the rationale behind it? So the rationale behind NIO smart charging is that I saw a way for the vehicle to really use dynamic electricity prices to optimize the charging session. With essentially

13:18 two clicks, you just activate smart charging in the vehicle, you set a departure time or a charge-by time. The vehicle automatically knows the day-ahead prices, picks the cheapest hours of the day to charge, and that's when charging happens. We just send commands directly to the vehicle. No setup, no login, no tokens that need to be handled for the user. They just need to make sure that their electricity tariff is dynamic, that they have a smart meter, but essentially it doesn't

13:50 matter which energy provider they have, because the dynamic electricity prices mainly follow all the same day-ahead signals. So it makes sense. But when you say specifically that you prefer to do it via the vehicle instead of the charger that NIO is building, what did you mean with that? So essentially if we do it via the vehicle, it doesn't really matter what the charger can do. It can be a dumb charger or a non-connected charger from any manufacturer. And doing it through the wall

14:23 box has the challenge that the communication with AC charging is actually quite limited. For example, the charger doesn't know what the state of charge of the vehicle is, and therefore doesn't really know how much energy the car wants or needs, which kind of limits what you can do. Now with ISO 15118 and the mandate for that in the future also for AC home charging, that will partly change, but we said, OK, we can quickly implement a function here that has real value to

14:59 our users, especially in the Nordics that already have dynamic electricity tariffs and smart meters. And we just went ahead and did it. It didn't cost much to develop or make. The prices are freely available. So it was really simple to do and solved sort of one of the core problems that many carmakers are battling with. Yeah, no, totally right. Interesting, and let's geek out a little bit. I think many people either don't know, or if they know,

15:32 they probably don't know why. So indeed the state of charge, which is how much battery you basically still have and how many kilometers you can still drive, is not something that is communicated to the wall box at the AC level, but at the DC level it is. So why is that? Do you know the technical background behind it? And when is ISO 15118 going to be implemented in all the AC chargers, if somebody doesn't

15:59 have a NIO but wants to see their state of charge through their wall box - when can they expect to see it? Yeah. So AC charging today works quite simply using pulse width modulation, or PWM signal, and there is essentially only the state and the charging current that can be communicated from the wall box to the vehicle. So the vehicle, as a charger, for example, says, OK, you can charge with 10 amps, for example.

16:31 And actually the number of phases that you charge on isn't defined either. The vehicle will just take however many phases, 1 or 3, as it gets. So actually, even the charging power doesn't get explicitly communicated during AC charging, because the only point of doing this is to protect the wires - either the wire from the charger to the vehicle or, in the house, the cable from the distribution box to the charger. And that's what you're trying to protect. So you set a maximum

17:05 charging current, and that is communicated to the vehicle. But the vehicle is actually the one in charge, pulling the energy through the onboard charger. So the charger can't actually directly change how much power goes through it. It's just sort of monitoring what's going on, and in case the vehicle is pulling too much power, it can shut down the charging session, but there is not much more going on. Wall boxes are essentially just an adapter to the vehicle with some safety functions built

17:39 in. So that's how it currently works. The EU, with a delegated act that was recently announced, said that from 2027 onwards AC wall boxes at home need to support ISO 15118-20, which means that you now have sort of a high-level communication going on, so you can send data packets back and forth. You need an additional small modem in the charger, which makes it also a little bit more expensive, and of course

18:18 then you need to implement this software stack. At NIO we experienced that for us it was really easy to implement the AC charging protocol - we did it ourselves. Now with 15118, it's not something that an AC charger manufacturer can realistically do in-house. You need to rely on some of the software providers in the ecosystem to give that to you, or you need to buy it from them. So both on the hardware side and on the software side

18:50 it does make AC charging quite a bit more expensive. So I'm not a huge fan of this 15118 mandate for basic AC charging, especially considering that if you actually control the vehicle, you can do really cool smart charging features there as well. I guess the hope is that essentially all home chargers become bidirectional in the future and all vehicles would be bidirectional, and it solves all our energy problems. But that is an assumption, and not

19:25 a fact, and it's quite interesting that they decided to mandate that. Just on the last point that you made - you say that you need the AC charger to be that smart by implementing ISO 15118 just to make the bidirectional case, right? That you can only do via the vehicle. So bidirectional charging - of course you need a way for the vehicle and charger to communicate with each other. So the charger, for example, needs to say, hey,

19:57 now I want you to discharge this amount of power. And that's a message that in the old communication protocol just didn't exist. So you need this high-level communication. And that's actually sort of the main issue about bidirectional charging - nothing actually changes in the wall box. It's just a wire going through it. So yeah, the magic happens in all the communication. You also want safety, because if the power goes out and you have people working on

20:30 the power grid, you don't want vehicles to suddenly start discharging power into a grid where people are touching the wires. So a lot of safety standards and grid codes go into that. Yeah, so just to be clear: if I have an AC charger right now at home with a vehicle that is bidirectional, that could be discharging - there's vehicle-to-load. I think there are plenty of vehicles out there that with AC can discharge, but only to

20:59 an appliance. If you want to discharge to your home or if you want to discharge to the grid, the big hurdle is having this protection on the charger - at the charger level - that protects, so to say, the grid from flows that shouldn't be flowing if there is a blackout, as you say, and some people are working on the grid. That's one big thing. But then the software stack for bidirectional charging could actually be only in

21:27 the vehicle, or am I wrong in that? You could run the V2G or the V2Home algorithms and software only in the vehicle - you don't really need to upgrade the wall box, would you? I guess the way ISO 15118 is currently set up is that the idea is that the charger is sort of centric to this smart charging approach, and that the charger, from whatever

21:58 source - maybe a home energy manager or maybe from a grid operator - gets a signal to please discharge energy into the grid. And when you do that, of course, the vehicle needs to exactly match the frequency of the grid. Concerning the grid codes, you need to have defined behavior: what happens if that grid frequency - which is 50 Hz in Europe - what happens if that deviates by, you know, 0.3 Hz for how many seconds? What are you supposed to do? Are

22:33 you supposed to lower the power? Are you supposed to completely shut off? Because that can trigger - if multiple devices in the grid behave incorrectly - it can make blackouts worse. And these grid codes, are they only at the transmission grid level or also at the distribution grid level? Mainly the TSO is in charge of maintaining the grid frequency across its grid, so mainly they are responsible for buying and implementing grid services. So in

23:12 that case, yes, they would be in charge there. But also, I guess they delegate some of the responsibilities to the distribution system operator, and the distribution system operator has additional requirements, of course, because they don't worry about the frequency, but they worry about transformers being overloaded and similar things. And touching back on the smart charging that you did - did you also consider self-consumption of solar energy, or was it

23:43 purely focused on the day-ahead spot market optimization? Yes, the day-ahead optimization is the first step. Of course you can also do solar-optimized charging, and you can do solar-optimized charging essentially in two ways. You can have your house measure your PV production and the house grid consumption and how much power you're exporting into the grid, and you can start charging to consume that. But I also looked into an alternative, because this

24:17 of course requires a lot of integrations and a lot of knowledge sharing. I also looked at - as part of my master's thesis - whether you can actually get similarly good results by just looking at professional solar intensity forecasts. Big operators of solar panels buy very accurate solar forecasts, including cloud movements and wind, because their job is to bid on the day-ahead market

24:55 and say, hey, I'm going to provide this much power at a certain time in the future. So they need very good forecasts, and we can use those at home to also make a pretty good estimation of how much power the solar system will be producing. You can make certain assumptions about what your own house grid consumption will be, and then you get like the 80 or 90% solution, which is much better than nothing. And

25:26 actually for most people probably good enough - and the question is how much additional cost and work do you want to put into those last 10% of optimization. So was that implemented? As a new driver, can they activate that feature? The plans are ready for doing solar-optimized charging, but I didn't get around to implementing it. OK, very nice indeed that you did the dynamic spot price feature, because that's something also quite unique. I'm not

25:56 sure - I'm not familiar with all the OEMs out there - but it sounds quite unique. I think what enabled us to do it is we took ourselves out of the equation. We didn't try to get value out of this, we didn't try to earn money through this function, and sort of that clouds your vision if your primary focus is to try to earn money with each function. We just flipped it around and said, OK, what can we do for the

26:24 user to fix his problem? And we found a solution that's really cheap to implement, works really reliably, and just does it. But of course it doesn't earn any money with it - it solves a problem. And is it being used a lot? Yeah, we're super happy that in the Nordics everybody has it. Of course, the price variations aren't as big as we experience here in Germany, but still they save a lot of money using it, and it's

26:55 As I said, super easy to set up. Anybody can do it. And it memorizes the location where you are, and every AC charging session inside of this bubble will then be smart-charging optimized, and everything outside, of course, will not. So yeah, it's really easy to manage. Can you also quantify how much they saved the driver? We calculated sort of what the earning potential was, and we figured out that you can probably save around 30% of your electricity costs, but as I

27:27 said, it's in the Nordics - the variation in pricing, because they have relatively consistent power generation, isn't that big as the potential is in Germany, but here we don't have the smart meters, so that's the problem. The goddamn smart meters in Germany. But let's not touch upon that topic, and there's plenty of other and more interesting things to touch upon. And battery swapping - I find that as well fascinating. I think NIO is probably the number one company out

28:02 there doing this. And can you share a bit more about the usage? You said interestingly there's the AC wall boxes, there's also the HPC cables that NIO has - fixed DC. Yeah, we have a 500 kW DC fast charger, which really is one of the fastest chargers in Europe, and yeah, they work great. And so are the users using these swappable batteries more than the fixed HPC, for example? And what do you also make of NIO being

28:37 the only one really pushing that concept further and not other OEMs, for example? So NIO usually has battery swapping and high-powered charging at the same location, and the user usually has a choice which one to use. And indeed, if both are available, they usually choose to swap, just because it's that much faster. It's fun, and it works very well. So battery swapping really is a great technology. It's a niche. I

29:09 don't expect every manufacturer or everybody to need it. There's a certain user group - for example, taxis - they really love it. For them it just solves a lot of issues, and for them it's the right thing to do. I don't think every car in Europe needs to have it. But I also have been to China a few times, and there, of course, battery swapping is just a way of life. I know people there that

29:38 haven't charged their car at all. They just swap, and there are so many swap stations there. Yeah, if you really have a good network, it just works. And what do you make of other OEMs not following suit? I completely understand. It does limit yourself a little bit in sort of what kind of cars you can make, the sizes of the vehicle, and it does add a little bit of cost, but it doesn't prevent

30:11 you from fast charging. So NIO vehicles can charge with 240 kW, even on a 400 V system. So you definitely don't have to make compromises on the fast-charging side as well. But for me, what made battery swapping so interesting is that after a battery swap, you have an empty battery. And the question is, what do you do with that empty battery? Do you charge it immediately, or do you essentially use the same algorithm that we use for the

30:41 cars - you do smart charging. So you wait for the electricity price to go down, and then you charge your vehicle. So you can kind of offer a fast-charging experience but at sort of AC electricity prices. And that's really neat - you can just use the energy when it's good for the grid, when it's cheap. So what's the price actually if I go as a NIO driver and want to swap my battery here in Germany, for example?

31:13 Yeah, it depends also a bit on location and country, but I think we're under 45 cents in some areas. It's quite a competitive price. And talking - you've worked at an American company, a market leader in EVs in the western world, and then you worked at Porsche, which is definitely known for high performance and has built the Taycan as an awesome EV, and then yeah, NIO that we just discussed as well, standing for an innovative Chinese

31:50 player. There are more around, given Xiaomi, given BYD and so on. So what's your take on the future of the OEM leadership board, so to say, and especially the EV world? Yeah, so those have been very different experiences. Tesla was sort of special. I think it was lightning in a bottle. I don't think it's easily recreated. I also don't think other American OEMs are similar. I guess the European model -

32:28 there are certain similarities between the German OEMs and the way they think, the way it works internally. You have a lot of assurance - you know sort of what the baseline is, you know what the decisions are, you can count on that to a certain extent. With a Chinese car company, the decisions are quicker, and they can change from day to day, and that enables an awesome innovation pace - something that is

33:01 also expensive to keep up, but each iteration makes the product better or cheaper, and that's really, really hard to compete with. I don't expect all the Chinese OEMs to be the same. I think there are probably big differences between startups and newcomers and the more established players, but in general, having a country focused on e-mobility really unlocks a lot of potential, and the cars are really good. Yeah. So let's now switch gears and talk

33:37 About the next phase, where you're currently in. What drove you as well to change now from Neo - and I think what is it, 2 months - and start the Electric Trucker app or company? What's the official name of the company? It's Electra Trucker Media, but the app is called eTrucker. And what sort of fascinated me is that charging at some point is going to become normal. It's something actually I

34:11 realized at Porsche: we had a charging product manager, but we didn't have a refueling product manager. Gas stations are kind of - there's no need to have expertise there. And I don't know if charging will go down that road. It definitely seems complicated enough that there'll still be interesting things to do, and I don't think on the car side we've solved all the issues yet. But I saw an

34:42 opportunity to go into the heavy-duty trucking area, also with the intention of maybe not recreating similar mistakes we made with passenger vehicles - using those lessons learned to really get it right the first time. That's why I teamed up with Tobias Wagner, who's the Electric Trucker, and I was fortunate enough to create the eTrucker app with him, and Mathias Brands, who's our software engineer. Together we

35:23 decided what we wanted to do. We mainly made this in the first step to help Tobias in his day-to-day work. He's still a truck driver - two weeks ago he went from Turkey to Portugal in essentially one go. The eTrucker app really helps his day-to-day work. The app tells you when you will arrive at a certain station and whether it is inside or outside your

35:54 remaining driving time. You can filter for specific CPOs, and he can also see which locations are actually suitable for overnight charging, because many of the infrastructure and high-power chargers built for trucks are actually built for that 45-minute break period during the day, where you're expected to leave after you charge. But truckers also have to do a 9- or 11-hour break later in the evening. And that's, I think,

36:29 the more interesting charging sessions, because that's actually where you charge more energy than during the short break. So one step back - what was the background story on how it all started? Did you meet Tobias at an event? Yeah, we met at an E.ON Drive Summit, a little bit over a year ago. We hit it off - I asked some of the right questions,

36:57 I was interested in understanding how it works. I had some experience with navigation systems and apps and the mobility service provider side of things. We said, OK, let's do this as a side project, see where it goes, and started to rate and evaluate high-powered charging sites on their suitability for trucks, brought that together, came up with an app, and just launched it.

37:40 And the company that's built - you are the three founders you just mentioned. So Tobias is still in his trucker role and obviously helps out with very practical experience, and Mathias was the other co-founder. You are now all in and trying to bootstrap a bit, living off your savings to make it work, right? We don't have many expenses right now. Of course we do

38:11 want to provide a premium experience. That's why we use very good maps - we use Google Maps, for example, because they have very high quality satellite imagery, which we find important for the truck driver to visually confirm that yes, there is enough space there to charge or park after the charging session, compared to other map providers like OpenStreetMap. And if you don't have that satellite view, you're missing out on a lot of context that helps

38:41 increase the confidence that you'll have a successful charging session there. We also use TomTom for very good truck-specific routes, so we can tell you exactly when you'll arrive with a truck. You're only allowed to drive 80 or 90 kilometers per hour in certain countries, and we take that into consideration, as well as the route you have to take, to make the best recommendation and visualization

39:14 possible. So that costs a little bit, but it's worth it to us. And just to understand the problem in detail: if I'm a trucker right now and I want to drive an electric truck, what's the key problem I'm facing that you're trying to address? The top 3, if you want to elaborate. Trucking has gone down the road where we now have quite good electric trucks already, even though for some of these companies

39:47 it's the 1st or 2nd iteration of their heavy-duty truck. They're actually quite capable, and we see often that they're used on relatively boring routes - point to point, every day the same route. That's also challenging, and you need charging solutions for that. You need to either build depot chargers at the origin or destination, or you have to find a charging site in between where you go every day. It's very repeatable, very predictable. There, our app would

40:21 Maybe help you determine if the charger you usually use is occupied or not. But what I think is more interesting, and where Tobias is sort of trailblazing, is this whole long-haul trucking area, which many people didn't think is ready for electric trucks yet. But we actually believe that that's where they can best show their advantages, have lower operating costs, and to get the payback period on a slightly more

40:57 expensive electric truck, you need to drive a lot of kilometers, and the trucks that drive the most kilometers are long-haul trucks. So we want to sort of open up that space, make it possible, give truckers the right tools to succeed, and we believe the eTrucker app is sort of the tool they need to never have worries and always find the right charger for their situation. So just to be again very specific, and sorry if I'm trying

41:28 to really nail this, but if I'm a trucker and you're trying to pitch me your solution, so to say, what's my problem, why would I need you, so to say, if I have my truck from MAN or any other OEM.

41:46 So we found actually that even for diesel trucks, many truckers don't really use the onboard navigation system of the truck. They have either tablets or phones with other navigation solutions, often also coming from the logistics company themselves, or tablets built into the vehicle. So the onboard navigation system of most of these trucks doesn't have very good POI data on where the truck can charge. And that's the main pain point we're solving, by

42:25 giving him or her very clear instructions on where they can go to charge. And it's really easy to operate - there's just one layer, really big buttons, and a very good overview of where you are. So the way you answer my question, so to say, is: if I need to deliver something from A to B, you answer where should I charge. And that's sort of also one of the things we noticed, is that there are

42:55 big differences in how autonomous, or how much responsibility, the driver has. We see some logistics companies that define everything for the trucker - exactly where they need to be, where they're going to charge, what route they're going to take. And maybe they optimize that and they have a good reason to recommend that. On the other hand, we see some logistics companies that roughly give the time that you need to be somewhere, but how you get

43:27 there is kind of up to you. And what we see, and what's great to have us on board, is to show how unpredictable the day is. You know, if you run into a traffic jam or you need to reroute, all the best plans just break down, and having a good and robust eTrucker app to help you out in these situations, we believe, brings a lot of value and

43:57 just unlocks long-haul trucking for most logistics companies. And so one of the big issues you said, when you want to help me understand where to charge, is to understand which sites are truck-friendly, so to say, right? So that's the kind of answer you're giving me - what are the best sites for me, which ones are truck-friendly. Yeah, so we define truck-friendly to have at least enough space on site to park your trailer, decouple,

44:30 and then go to the charging station to charge. That's sort of the bare minimum. If you don't have a place to park your trailer on site, we don't usually consider that. And also, of course, on the way to the charger, you can't go through a road where it's prohibited for trucks. And often there is either a weight limit or a height limit that prevents you from using specific chargers.

45:00 So we take all of that into consideration. We are also actually very conservative about what we include. We don't want to include any sites where there's potential for pedestrians or children, or just a lot of traffic. We don't believe those sites to be truck-friendly and don't want to route any trucks there. But we found that actually quite a number of sites are truck-friendly. We also, of course, include all the sites

45:32 where you don't have to decouple - sort of the pull-through locations. And even if you activate the only pull-through location filter, you can still pretty much get from A to B across Europe. Of course, the challenge for optimizing this is you want to find a charger that is as close as possible to the end of your driving time shift. So when you start driving, you can drive for 4.5 hours. You kind of want to find a charger that's between

46:07 4 hours 10 minutes and 4 hours 30 minutes - nothing over, but also nothing considerably less, because then you're sort of losing time. So really having those options helps truck drivers achieve the same performance as diesel trucks. So the key dimensions are, on the one hand, understanding which sites are truck-friendly, and the second is which sites are truck-friendly along my route and able to fit within the driving constraints - those 4.5 hours that you

46:43 need to then take a break with, and then daily limits and weekly limits, right? Yeah, so that's the most important thing. We also have the long-pause filter, where you can say, OK, this is a location where you can actually stay the night, stay 9 or 11 hours, charge up there, and not worry about things. So these are the things we believe are most important. This is sort of the data model we built around

47:15 It actually doesn't perfectly fit into this OCPI data model, where you sort of describe charging locations, which is sort of the agreed-upon standard to communicate charging locations that MSPs use to communicate with charge point operators. So, yeah. Alright, I think that makes sense, and the solution you provide - we touched upon already a bit - so it's a navigation tool, a map, so TomTom and Google Maps, and then we have also this charge

47:54 point data. Then I think I read an article about EcoMovement, right, so you get that and then you combine it all together, and then as a driver I can easily say I need to go from A to B. And you tell me where I need to charge best, and I can also set some more filters myself, right? Yeah, so currently we're not really telling you, OK, this specific charger is the one you have to go to. We're more about showing you

48:20 all the options along your route, so you can make the best decision. You know, truck drivers for us are professionals. They're experts at what they do. And we believe that giving them just the right tools to succeed is the best way going forward. And for us, it's great that we can also rely on a community. We really take this POI data topic very seriously. We have a great partner in EcoMovement, who just gives us a

48:51 great base layer of where the chargers are. They give us live occupancy data, and on top of that we put our attributes. Actually, the trucker community is helping build that. So on each charger, if you open it up, you can sort of report an error, but you can also sort of upgrade a charger, because we know where every DC charger is. You just click on it and say, hey, actually, I think this is a DC

49:17 charger for trucks. And then we take a look at it, and if Tobias and I agree that it's truck-compatible, we add it to the main map. And we also point out a lot of locations where we believe truck charging might be possible, and then we have a community feedback mode that you can go into and say, hey, actually, I've been to the charger and no, it's not truck-compatible. Let me let them know that, and then we take

49:45 it out or we add it as a truck charger. Interesting, and I also read something about a chip - what you call it - the e-trucker chip. Yeah, yeah, can you elaborate on that one? So the way payment for trucking currently works - it's quite an interesting space and we'd love to sort of play a part in enabling this - is that often a logistics company will make a deal with a specific charge point operator in exchange for a certain volume commitment in

50:21 kilowatt hours. And logistics companies, if they have a few trucks, are actually talking about millions of kilowatt hours that they might be charging in public. And so there is some leverage there to negotiate prices. And what that usually means is that from that charge point operator, you get a charge card, you put that into the truck, and the trucker will use that to charge there. But if you do that with two or three different

50:51 CPOs, then you start to get two or three RFID cards. Then maybe add a few more for your depot chargers at your own home depot or also at some depot-sharing opportunities. And then we get into a similar situation to where we were with the cards, where you have ten different RFID cards, and each mistake of pulling the wrong card can actually be a really expensive mistake, because you're charging up to 500 kWh, and doing

51:25 that at the wrong price makes the whole route potentially unprofitable. Yeah, that's quite a big cost. Yeah, and so what the e-trucker chip allows us is to maybe combine some of these cards together, so you can tell the logistics company that we often charge with, hey, you don't need to give me another card. Here is the token that I already have in the vehicle. Please just add that to your system and let me charge

51:54 that. And the same also works for bigger CPOs, where you can tell them, hey, this is the card I'm using, please add it to your system and then send me the bill afterwards. It's just - maybe it's a stupid question - isn't that the MSP model? Currently the e-trucker chip is not an MSP. We're not part of the transaction. We just provide essentially the physical card that can be registered in different systems, but

52:27 that's an area we're looking into - what role does an MSP play in trucking. That's a really interesting question that we're battling with right now, because we have these two extremes. On the one hand, logistics companies want the flexibility to pick the right charger exactly at the right spot to optimize their driving time. On the other hand, they're willing to give up a little bit of that flexibility and commit kilowatt hours to certain charge point operators in exchange for a

53:02 significantly lower price. And this interesting interplay is something where we're looking into what role an MSP, or payment solutions in general, might play. Makes sense. And your intention is to be - what type of player - how would you call yourself? Is it like a route optimization app, a navigation app? Do you want to eventually be a payment service? And what will be the business model? Yeah, so we look at

53:38 this from the driver's perspective and then an extension from the logistics company perspective, what do they need to succeed with electric trucks and whatever they need. And wherever we find an opportunity, that's what we're going to provide. Currently it's the map with manually verified POI data for each individual charger that we believe has a lot of value right now. Even though the app is free, and anybody can just go to the App Store and download

54:11 the e-Trucker app, even just as a car driver and say, hey, I want to be part of the e-Trucker community and verify a location. So that part will always be free. But then this interplay between the flexibility you need and the flexibility you're willing to give up as a logistics company to break even or be profitable, that's where we want to help the logistics company in the future. It sounds interesting, and the stakeholders we

54:46 we've mentioned a few that you have to engage with. I think in German, Spedition is freight forwarder, I think in English, right? So the driver of course is essential, but do you also need to coordinate with the freight forwarding company or is that not relevant for your app? Yes, so we do see different solutions coming from both sides. So coming from the freight forwarder or the logistics company in general,

55:20 really planning centrally the route for the driver and recommending them where to charge. And right now we're coming a little bit from the other side and saying, OK, actually if the driver is responsible himself, and especially you always have problems - even the best plan, and even if you have a backup plan, things go wrong. And that's where the - everybody has a plan until he gets hit in the face. Yeah, absolutely, that's what we see and

55:53 that's sort of what Tobias shows us every week in his videos, and yeah, that's just an exciting space to be in. OK, and the idea of - so the freight forwarder has to bring something from A to B, and so there are different logistics companies or the customers of the logistics companies that could set up chargers. Is that a stakeholder

56:22 that is relevant for you, or do you purely look at the public chargers, so more the charge point operators and public? No, we do see that there is an opportunity for private depot charging to be a little bit cheaper than public charging. And what we cannot forget ever is that logistics companies really care about what the price of a kilowatt hour is. And if they can save a few cents, that's generally what's going to happen.

56:55 So if we can find depots where they can charge cheaper, that's where we'll go. And currently we do include depot chargers in the app. We mark them to say, hey, you actually need to register before you go here and make a contract with the depot. But if you drive past one of these depots every day, it'd be nice to know that there would be a good charging opportunity

57:23 there. So we want to be a platform for logistics companies and charge point operators, or these depots with depot chargers, to come together and find the optimal route, because that's really what we're here for. We just want to make electric trucks a reality in Europe. Makes sense. And you built the product quite quickly. I don't know how long it took you to build the app. So Matias is an awesome software developer, and he really

57:55 created it quite quickly and at super high quality. It works very well. But also, of course, we're not trying to overcomplicate things. We focus on what's really adding value, we include that and cut out all the rest, so that enables us to be quite nimble right now. And how many users do you have right now and how did they find you? So we have over 8,000 downloads right now, which exceeded my expectations

58:28 by a lot. And so, what's really awesome is that most of them are just part of the e-Trucker community, also driving normal trucks. But we also saw great interest from people going with their trailer on vacation, so normal cars but with the Wohnwagen - they need similar chargers. So we have a lot of those on the app as well, and

59:05 yeah, just people providing feedback on the different chargers, and that's what we're so thankful for. We get up to 20 feedbacks per day, verifying chargers, showing us new ones, and telling us which ones aren't really truck-capable, so we're super thankful for that. And usually you want to grow by word of mouth, or is Tobias actually with his videos - I imagine also super good to get new

59:37 users to find you, or do you also have a strategy on how to get more users? Yeah, so we're now more focused on getting other logistics companies on board. We want fewer users but really high-value users, because with the e-Trucker app we're kind of controlling flows of many thousands of kilowatt hours. So each user or truck driver is valuable to us.

1:00:11 We're super thankful for everybody that uses it, and they also have an opportunity to sort of give back by providing feedback. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you know if new entrants like Juna from Zenda - would that be something interesting, would they be a partner for you, or how do you look at that? We're absolutely open to any kind of partnerships, and we also provide the POI data through our

1:00:40 partner EcoMovement. So you can approach EcoMovement to ask for the eTrucker data, and then you can use it in your own front end or application. That way we're sort of sharing it to anybody who might need it. OK. And just zooming out a little bit on the market of long-haul trucking - can you share some numbers, like how many long-haul trucks are there, how many are electric, and maybe

1:01:17 distinguish them also by geography? Yeah, so that's always an interesting part of the job - that sort of reality check. Of course, if you only watch Tobias's videos and you think electric trucks are here, it works, everything's great, why isn't everybody doing this? But talking to the logistics companies - yeah, that gives you a reality check, to say, OK, there are some considerations and some, maybe imagined, drawbacks of

1:01:55 electric trucks that need to be addressed, and where education needs to happen. Like, for example, what kind of objections do you get to electric trucking? Well, the most common one is that they're not suitable for long-haul trucking, only for point-to-point range. And yeah, that's the main one - charging speed. And there are a lot of players that are also calling for the megawatt charging system, or

1:02:28 the MCS plug, with much higher charging power. And they say, yeah, we need to get those chargers in the ground first before we can even consider electric trucks. We don't believe that to be the case, and I think Tobias shows it every week that it works. And there might be some use cases for MCS megawatt charging, but we really haven't found them yet. So we're just debunking it. Why

1:03:02 do you think it's not needed to get started, if some trucker or freight forwarder is listening to this? Yeah, so, assuming you can charge overnight, a truck starts the day and can drive 4.5 hours at 80 or 90 kilometers per hour. And that gets you to maybe 40% SOC on one of these big trucks - the Mercedes Actros 600 is a great example - where yeah, they

1:03:34 just are not empty after those 4.5 hours. And if you plug into, let's say, 250, 300, maybe even 400 kW of power, you get back up to maybe 70%, and then you're only allowed to drive 4.5 more hours. You just can't empty a battery in a day - it just doesn't really happen. The only thing you need to do is use the eTrucker app, activate the overnight parking filter, and find

1:04:07 a place where you can charge overnight. And then you can do that every day, and there really is no reason why it shouldn't work. So, as I said, 400 kW of power is plenty. And what I would kind of like to see is - in the eTrucker app we also note down whether the cable is cooled or uncooled, and that doesn't really make a big difference for the logistics company, but

1:04:41 liquid-cooled cables are really awesome. They can hold the power for the whole hour that a truck might charge. But of course they also produce a lot of heat waste because the cable - the copper wire - is actually much thinner. Uncooled cables are also quite good because they don't have those losses. Of course, after maybe 10–15 minutes they might go into derating and you need to lower the charging power,

1:05:12 but even those are perfectly fine for a 45-minute charging session in most cases. So coming back to the initial question - how many long-haul trucks are there in Europe, and how many electric ones? Yeah, so right now - I don't know the exact number right now - but we see a little bit over 100 truck drivers in the app that have sort of the usage profile of an electric truck driver. And we see it

1:05:48 growing every day. I think new truck sales are actually quite electric-heavy. We hope that trend continues, and that these trucks will be given the full capability of also being long-haul trucks. I think by 2030, 30% of new truck sales will be electric. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that stat - here in Germany, or

1:06:22 in Europe, was it? I'm blanking a little bit on the exact one, but something like that. And I imagine they're broken down more on the distribution trucks before reaching 30% long-haul, or is it something you're confident will also happen in long-haul? So, currently - maybe I'm living in this bubble - but I'm confident that it will become apparent and clear that electric trucks are cheaper to operate. I think right

1:06:56 But that's numbers maybe for the one that doesn't, is not so familiar - in which way is it cheaper today already. So of course the truck costs a little more, but electricity is just cheaper than diesel, even the highly subsidized diesel. So the electric truck already has a slight edge, and now it all depends on how many kilometers you drive to really exploit that edge.

1:07:29 Tobias has a few videos on breaking down the exact numbers in euros. And we do believe that it's a tipping point. So as soon as you reach this point - and it might be different for each country - if that tipping point is reached, there's no real reason for logistics companies to still be buying new diesel. And the electric trucks get turned over more quickly if they only serve in their capacity for a few years.

1:08:01 A few years, and then it gets turned over. So by 2030, or 2032 or something, we'll have gone through almost one complete overhaul of the whole fleet. So the transition to fully electric could be much quicker than in passenger vehicles, because emotional factors play less of an issue, and our job right now is just to clear all the roadblocks, clear up all the misconceptions, and

1:08:36 let the economy do its thing. Yeah, in the long haul, as you define it or as it's defined, it would be not only one country, right? So you are immediately from day one already using your app internationally. So actually, this week we launched the map also for Spain, Portugal, UK, Belgium, and Romania, in addition to the network we already have, so we essentially cover the whole of Europe right

1:09:15 now. Of course we wanted to do it step by step because, as I said, we manually verify each location, and we don't want to show any locations that haven't been manually verified, so it just took some time to go through each and every one. But yeah, we're really happy that we finally covered Europe completely. And we don't plan to go much beyond that for now. And going back to the objections you hear when you talk to truckers

1:09:48 or freight forwarders - you said range is one topic they bring up, which we already talked about and how it can be solved. Are there other big ones? Yeah, it's essentially the charging network. So range and charging network go a little bit hand in hand, but as I said, you need to find a location at the end of your driving time each day. So yes, you do need quite a tight

1:10:20 network. But you don't need fully dedicated truck sites. We're super happy that they're coming online, and of course if we get more and more electric trucks, we need just bigger sites. I'm much more a fan of having fewer but bigger sites. That's sort of also one of the lessons learned I took away from my time at Tesla - it's smarter to have fewer but bigger sites, and I think they were really pioneers in sort

1:10:51 of understanding queuing theory, which describes the average waiting time depending on how many servers or chargers you have. That's what I'd like to see - these really big central hubs. We don't need that many of them, but yeah. We also need to talk about prices. I want charging to be at some point profitable for the CPO - I think that's fair. We need

1:11:25 to give them at least a chance to become profitable in a reasonable amount of time. Just calling for cheaper charging without considering the cost behind that isn't really going to be a long-term solution. I'm not a huge fan of really price-undercutting, and I am a big fan of optimizing your costs, making sure that you build cheaply and effectively and don't make

1:11:59 mistakes. That's something Tesla did very, very well, and that's why today they can still offer some of the best prices out there. Unfortunately, none of the Tesla Superchargers are truck-compatible. The cable is a little bit too short, and the Supercharger cabinets only go up to 500 volts, whereas essentially all the trucks are 800-volt vehicles. That's sort of preventing that, but there are enough other

1:12:35 chargers that can go up to 1000 volts. I actually don't mind anymore. I think Mercedes now launched the CLA without the 800-volt option - at least that's what they announced, then they changed their mind again because of backlash - but yeah, you can get through Europe on 1000 volts, no problem. Interesting. And in other countries, even if you were to be the most optimistic e-trucker and you would say yeah, that's not possible - that's sort of one

1:13:13 of the biggest eye-opening things. I got through at least virtually, and also sometimes visited them myself - each of these countries - and looked at how they build high-powered chargers. You're right, there are huge differences, but it's actually not the countries that you might maybe expect. Tobias's trip two weeks ago to Turkey was mind-boggling - how good the infrastructure was, how many chargers there were, and how powerful.

1:13:46 They were surprisingly good, and also the Nordics, they have really good networks. But you also see, of course, the countries where space is a scarce resource - Germany, Switzerland - they don't have that much space and it's much more difficult. Spain, of course, is my favorite country right now for trucking. I think they've got a great network, they got so much space. Spain's really, really good.

1:14:19 The UK, surprisingly, not so much. Not that many good chargers, very narrow roads, very little space for the trucks. I'm a little bit worried about the UK right now. Also Netherlands - not that much space, a lot of older hardware, because they started a little bit earlier, and that just means you have a little bit older legacy hardware. Yeah, that makes sense. And talking prices, you

1:14:55 already hinted upon that - that's the key, the total cost of ownership. What's the price difference from CPO to CPO, the range or the average that you have encountered? So we see, you need to either include or exclude value added taxes, but the range of course goes from 39 cents to 80 cents in some cases. And 80 cents just doesn't make sense - yes, sorry, gross, right - and that just, you

1:15:33 know, doesn't really work. It might work for passenger vehicles that just charge maybe 60 kWh, but if you're charging 500 kWh it makes a huge difference. We haven't really found as an industry or ecosystem yet the perfect solution, but I think we have the right people at it, and the motivation right now is really great. We see a lot of interest from the charge point operators in

1:16:05 making their sites more truck-friendly, maybe also making business offers for trucks. So we see that as a very positive development, and we want to help them make their payback times for the charging sites quicker. Yeah, that makes sense. And in terms of kWh in the battery, what size of batteries have you seen? So long-haul trucks go from 500 to 600 kWh of usable battery energy, some even a

1:16:37 little bit more. Of course, that's one of the fun topics - it's actually not that easy to say exactly how much energy is in a battery. It kind of depends on how you discharge it, how quickly, at what temperature, and actually when you stop discharging. That determines how many kWh exactly you can pull out. Yeah, but it doesn't really matter because, you know,

1:17:13 these batteries are so huge and they have awesome range. It's roughly 1 kWh per kilometer, that's what we've been seeing, which makes calculating this stuff really easy. We'll see - maybe in the winter it goes back up a little bit, but that's what we're at. And focusing a bit on depot charging, do most of the truckers that you're currently monitoring - like you can see from Toby and his videos and the

1:17:46 Nano Jansen - they have lots of charging infrastructure at the depots. Is it very commonplace now that electric truckers today can always rely on their own depot at their company where they can charge? Yeah, that's usually one of the places logistics companies start - to ask the question: how can I add chargers to my depot? And they very quickly hit the wall of grid capacity, which is probably going to be an

1:18:18 issue. And then you see some companies that say, OK, let's do this anyway, let's try it with maybe also lower grid capacity. Like, how much is a typical grid capacity at these logistics companies? It really depends on the history of the site. If it has historically been a large industrial area, they might have a lot of excess capacity, but usually not so much, and in many cases you can probably only add maybe 100 or 200

1:18:48 kW of power. And then the question is, what role does battery buffering play? I assume others are probably more of an expert on that, but it's not a 1-to-1 replacement for grid capacity. And it's mostly DC charging, right, even at the depot - not AC? Yeah, we don't see much AC charging for trucks anymore. I guess that's fine. I don't expect that trend to jump over to passenger vehicles,

1:19:22 but for trucks it kind of makes sense. And in terms of chargers, is there a dominant hardware - we see the Alpitronic being everywhere. Is that the preferred brand? Depots are often with Kempower, I think that's a very well-known brand, yeah. What was also really interesting is going through historical videos and pictures of sites. I look at every individual charging site and usually on Google you can see historic

1:19:52 pictures from three or four years ago, and you see all kinds of chargers being used there. But if you then look at the most recent picture, often you do see an Alpitronic HyperCharger there. It almost scares me how much other charging hardware they have replaced - charger hardware that I thought at least was fine - even those got replaced in many cases. I guess that's OK. I also do see a big trend

1:20:26 towards these sort of distributed systems where you have one central power cabinet and multiple dispensers, kind of what Kempower has been doing. I think the electronic version of that will also do really well, but we also see that we, as a trucker, would like to have some predictability. For a truck, it does make a difference if you're going to a 400 kW charger or a Hypercharger with 400 kilowatts. You don't really know, am

1:21:00 I gonna get the 400, or is somebody going to plug in next to me and I'm only going to get the 200? And when you only get the 200, maybe you need to charge a few minutes longer and sort of extend your break beyond the legally mandated 45-minute break to really get to an SOC that you're comfortable with continuing with. So that's one of the issues. But on the other hand, I'm happy to see a lot of

1:21:27 Alpitronic chargers out there because they have been shown to be quite reliable. And that's, of course, the worst case - if you, as a trucker, go to a charger and it doesn't work, but you don't have any remaining driving time left. You're kind of stuck there. You need to wait 45 minutes, and then you can start finding a charger, and then you need to charge for 45 minutes again. So that's the worst case we're trying to avoid with the app.

1:21:55 If you know, while we are at it in the charging industry - the industry is very aware of this, and I think some of the drivers as well. There's a bit of an issue with reliability, and that's why Alpitronic has won so much market share, because they were known to be very reliable. What made their reliability? What were they doing better than others? Actually, coming back to what I mentioned earlier, this

1:22:26 software - they're one of the few manufacturers that actually develop a lot of the software stack in-house, including the ISO 15118 software stack. They do have expertise in that. They also have a huge team, of course - that's what you need to be able to do this in-house - but it apparently translates into higher reliability. Even though I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the user interface. I still don't understand why

1:23:03 as a user I need to select the plug I'm currently using, that I already plugged in. That's something the charger could recognize automatically. I don't know why they don't change that. OK. And in terms of charge point operators, is there, in all the analysis so far, some that you prefer or that you find are better than others? I mean, we're really excited about all the Ionity chargers because we know they all have 300

1:23:35 or 350 kilowatts. They all have liquid-cooled cables. It's a little bit interesting because now Ionity also has these mixed sites with, for example, an ABB liquid-cooled charger with 350 kilowatts and a Hypercharger 400, usually without liquid-cooled cables. For the truck driver, they need to make a decision which one to use, and I'd mostly recommend them sticking to the 350 kW liquid-cooled charger and not going to the slightly more powerful 400 kW

1:24:13 charger, because the power will drop and there's a big risk that somebody plugs in next to you and you only get 200 kilowatts. Yeah, the load management - that's something that many people maybe don't know or aren't as familiar with, and they wonder why they don't get the full power they were expecting. Maybe to explain to the listeners: there's always a load management on site, right? And maybe you can elaborate on what type

1:24:43 of strategies you have discovered so far. So this is something we take very, very seriously. This is something we've been adding to the database from day one: what is the load management at the site, and what is the peak charging power - how much can I rely on it? We have three levels: high load management, meaning there is a high probability that you'll get significantly less power, or low load management, meaning

1:25:13 you're almost guaranteed to get that power. High-powered charging sites are usually load-managed if it's a centrally managed one-power-cabinet-with-multiple-dispensers setup. The power of the power cabinet defines what the maximum charging speed is, and the more people plug into the same power cabinet, the lower the power. The grid connection usually matches the power of the central power cabinet. If you have multiple central power cabinets and multiple

1:25:52 systems, there probably is a load management going on between them as well, where they cannot actually operate every power cabinet at full capacity at the same time. Similar to when you have these all-in-one systems from Alpitronic, for example - if you have 10 chargers with 400 kilowatts each, they cannot all operate at that power at the same time. Which is a little bit wasteful because you have AC-to-DC power converters on

1:26:25 site that can't be fully utilized. That's why these satellite systems, where it's one central power cabinet, have some advantages - because you only have exactly as many AC/DC converters as you have grid connection. Yeah, and there's also peak shaving going on sometimes by the charge point operator, not only to protect the circuit breaker limit at the grid connection point, but also to save some money on the peak they have to pay for - the DSO, right? Yeah, if they're smart, they have a

1:27:00 peak shaving limiter in there as well. But the question, of course, for the CPO is: OK, where do I actually set the limit? Because if I expect the site to be at full occupancy regularly, I should probably be willing to pay for the full grid fees. If I think it was a fluke, and I actually don't think the rest of the year there'll ever be a situation where everything is in use at the

1:27:28 same time, then it doesn't make sense to give the user the power, even though I could, even though the grid connection is there, even though everything's ready. But if you do peak shaving, you're not giving the user as much power as you could, because you're trying to save money. And one thing that is also interesting, I think, is the difference between trucks and passenger vehicles. So the EV driver that knows the charging peak it can get from a

1:27:57 350 kW Ionity or whatever other charging operator - they rarely reach, or never reach, at this point in time. Most of the vehicles are still capped because of the onboard electronics, right. So you have a 400 volt system, and it mostly can get - I think Porsche was the first 800 volt vehicle, but actually the voltage of the battery doesn't play

1:28:30 any role in how fast the car can charge. The only thing that matters is battery temperature and SoC. The voltage only means essentially whether the charging cable going from the charger to the vehicle is a limiting factor or not. Because these cables can typically, if they're uncooled, only handle up to 500 amps for a short amount of time. And that's just the advantage of an 800 volt system, is that

1:29:07 you can, with the right charger, do 500 amps continuously. And that's sort of what we see happening. And that gets you to almost 400 kW, and that's what most trucks are actually pulling. But isn't the power the multiplication of the current and the voltage? So if you have 800 volts, you would have double as much as 400 volts. So if you have 800 volts, you can get the same charging power with half the charging

1:29:35 current. And the limiting factor - the current would be half, yeah, sure. And the limiting factor is usually the charging cable from the charger to the vehicle. There, if you have an uncooled cable, it helps a lot to have an 800 volt system. Trucks have a bigger cable than passenger vehicles - that's the reason they can charge at those high levels of power. Trucks can go up to 400 kW. They can actually go much higher. So 400 kW

1:30:09 doesn't really challenge a truck battery because, if it's 600 kWh of total energy capacity, the C-rate - which is the relation between charging power and battery capacity - isn't very high. So they could probably charge with 800 kW as well. That would then start to be interesting, which is great, because that means you don't really need to precondition the batteries before the truck charges. Passenger cars need to be very carefully

1:30:43 brought up to temperature, so you need to preheat the battery, which actually wastes quite a lot of energy. Then you plug in and it can charge really fast, but if it charges really fast, there are also a lot of losses and then you need to cool down the battery again. So everything you warm up the battery, you later have to cool down again. That's great with trucks - you don't need to really precondition

1:31:08 and you always charge quite quickly. Because what happens if you charge a battery at a low temperature - the battery management system will simply not allow a high current, and you'll be stuck with low charging power because the battery would get damaged if the battery management system wouldn't limit the power. Yes, so that's the whole game with preconditioning: you avoid damaging the battery on the one hand, and on the other hand you enable the battery to charge at higher currents and

1:31:43 therefore higher power, which is a big topic. I think in one of the last videos I was watching, it was also looking at how each OEM has made the logic of the preconditioning work - that's something the OEM decides. You as a user don't have so much flexibility. And I think it affects the trucker in his day-to-day as

1:32:12 well - how this preconditioning works in the planning. As I said, trucks don't need that much preconditioning because the charging power isn't that big compared to the total battery capacity. But what I did find very interesting is that most trucks have a way to limit the charging power, and even the default is usually to charge at a lower power, and you need to individually click a button to unlock the full power. I'm not quite sure if

1:32:46 it's due to battery longevity, or because of load management they think it's easier, but that's something to be aware of. If your truck isn't charging as quickly as you were hoping, check if that's not the issue. And talking about the tours of each trucker - how can I imagine it? Is it very fixed for each week, or also - I mean, sometimes you see these changes in the week in Toby's videos - so how frequently is this plan

1:33:18 disrupted in terms of: oh, there's a new order coming in. What Toby does is relatively representative of what the typical long-haul trucker does, meaning that, yes, you're constantly looking for stuff to transport from A to B, and you're always trying to find a return load. When you go somewhere, you're trying to get something on the way back. There are different markets where you can sort of

1:33:55 get that, but those usually don't pay as well, so you probably earn more money on the way there and try to just cover your costs on the way back. That's typical for a long-haul trucker, but as I said, there are also a lot of trucks just doing the same route every day, or having a weekly schedule that looks the same every week. It's a tough job. It's not sleeping at home

1:34:23 many times, and being in all kinds of situations. It's a hard life, and I greatly respect the service they do. Everything we own was in a truck at some point, and we need to help them decarbonize and go electric, but it's not a given, and we need to be thankful. And talking a bit about the trucker life behind the curtain - so everybody who's watched the videos, and who hasn't recommended

1:34:58 watching the Electrohocker videos? What's the behind-the-curtains that you get to know of Toby? He's great. He's super honest. He tells it like it is, and so it's not that much different behind the curtains. But it is a hard life and he makes it look easy, and I think that's something we need to keep in mind - that we

1:35:29 need to support our truckers with the right tools to make it happen, because not everybody comes from the charging industry and has all this knowledge. We just talked about charging power and how to use all the payment devices and do all the settings. That's hard stuff, and that's also a role for us: to educate truck drivers on how to drive an electric truck. But will

1:36:00 truckers also use a credit card just to pay, or to make it easy? For trucks, typically, truck drivers so far don't really get issued a company credit card. It's something that wouldn't be a huge issue, and in other markets - in America, for example - it's normal to issue a credit card. You can even have something called a merchant category code restricted credit card, which means you can only use this credit card

1:36:35 for specific services - so, for example, just for charging, or just for charging and washing your car. For passenger vehicles, I had some hope for this kind of card to become more common. But right now, I think we all agree the system is kind of broken. The price you pay per kWh with the credit card is more of a price signal to the other players in the ecosystem: hey, this is my initial offer,

1:37:12 come to me, let's negotiate a better price. If you pay with a credit card, you're kind of the loser and not really getting the price you deserve. I think that's a tragedy and it's really sad. I would love to see more dynamic pricing as well. I love on-peak and off-peak pricing. Our infrastructure is very valuable. Soon we'll have more cars and trucks

1:37:45 on the road than infrastructure, and we need to balance things out. The best way we can do that, and the fairest way, is by making it more expensive when we have high demand and less expensive during off-peak hours, spreading out the load. It's not great that we don't really have the systems for that, because I think CPOs are willing to go this way, but the way we currently have it set up, with MSPs in the

1:38:16 middle, they can't really forward those dynamic prices so well to the end customers. So we're in a system that's kind of like a Nash equilibrium or a prisoner's dilemma, where everybody's behaving according to their own best interest but we're not at the system optimal. We need some sort of jolt or change in the rules - even though I'm not a big fan of regulation. I think we've over-regulated the charging ecosystem quite a lot right now.

1:38:53 But we need some shock to the system to get us into a better equilibrium. Going in that direction, having a spot-market orientation with dynamic prices for a trucker would enable charging at an even lower price, right at noon when there's lots of sun. I mean, the question is what you want to optimize for. Do you want to optimize for congestion at the charging site - so when you have a lot of

1:39:20 demand and you want to avoid waiting lines - or do you want to optimize for the energy purchase and enable offering the lowest prices by going really low when the price is negative, for example? Historically, I've been more of a fan of on-peak and off-peak pricing to manage congestion, but I'm warming up more and more to dynamic pricing as well, because it's just more predictable - you know exactly, OK, next week, what the price will be at

1:39:51 A certain time, but it's still time-variable and still spreads out the demand. But more and more I'm warming up to the idea of having the day-ahead prices or the spot market prices go straight to the vehicle. If you make it transparent, it seems like a fine idea. And when the truckers have these long hours during the night, do you even see bidirectional charging? Where it's - what was it - 9 hours or 10 hours? So yeah, what

1:40:27 we have is flexibility. The question is how do we use that flexibility? Do we use that flexibility - they're there for 9 hours - to lower the charging power to maybe 100 kilowatts and just charge for 5, 6, 7 hours? Or do we say, OK, let's actually install a fast charger, put a 300 kilowatt charger there, and delay charging until the electricity is really cheap in the night, and then you charge that up. And then you can

1:40:58 go one step further and say, OK, let's put a maybe slightly higher-power charger. And during that one hour where it's really cheap, we load up on energy, and then we discharge it later in the night when it may be more expensive. But then we need to recharge it really quickly before we go. So then you have more demands on the infrastructure. Unfortunately, what I see is that the

1:41:30 nighttime, when most of these cars or trucks are stationary, in the energy market isn't the most interesting time of the day. So I'm a little bit concerned that the charging losses that you have to a certain extent don't fully compensate. If the truck is stationary over the day - and that might be a trend we see - maybe at some point a logistics company says, hey, let's flip this around, let's drive at night,

1:42:05 because on the Brenner, for example, electric trucks are now allowed to drive at night. And that might flip everything and we say, OK, actually during the day we can charge really cheaply on solar energy. For the truck driver, of course, it's not so nice because then they need to drive at night. But if it makes economic sense, yeah, that might - also thinking of longer time periods at night, but then during the weekend, or think about

1:42:37 stuff like autonomous vehicles that might also affect your business model eventually. So talking about that and getting towards the end of the podcast - what are trends that you are particularly excited about in the electric trucker world, in macro trends, and how they would affect your business? So right now I'm mostly worried about AI and how that's going to affect all our jobs. For trucking

1:43:13 in particular, autonomous driving has gone through a few hype cycles now. It should be possible at some point. But the question then is how does recharging actually work? And that was kind of fun at NIO - we already had a system that was fully automated, so battery swap is something you can do without anybody inside, and the car can sort of replenish itself. When

1:43:50 we have autonomous cars or trucks, we also need to think of autonomous and automatic charging solutions. I saw a lot of failed projects with charging robots that sort of plug in from the side, and inductive charging isn't going to be relevant for trucks at all. With inductive charging, of course, you have even more charging losses. You kind of need to have something similar to an onboard charger inside the vehicle,

1:44:28 because the AC waves need to be converted into DC power for the battery. So as much power as you want to have inductively, you need a pretty big AC-to-DC converter in the car. So I don't believe that will be happening. But you could also have an underbody device that sort of touches the vehicle and gives power through that. But that's, of course, also on the underside of

1:45:01 the vehicle, which is very delicate, and I don't know how robust such a system must be. For trucks, I haven't really found a better automatic replenishing system than battery swapping. And I think battery swapping for trucks could be booming - in China it's a game changer, it perfectly works there. CATL is betting on it now. CATL has a system. We were at a company called e-Haul, which near Berlin in Germany has a demonstrator for a great

1:45:40 battery swap system for trucks. You just go in from the side. It's even much simpler than for passenger vehicles. A NIO Power Swap Station is a marvel of technology and super complex. For trucks you can make it much simpler, also because you don't need to worry about ride comfort. The NIO Power Swap Station is made super smooth so that you don't feel scared or anything while you're inside the vehicle. But for trucks

1:46:08 you don't need all of that and you can make it super simple, super fast. So if autonomous trucks come, I bet truck battery swapping will also be around the corner. Alright, and is there any last message or ways people can contact you? Yeah, please go ahead and download the eTrucker app, check it out for yourself. We'd love some feedback on certain sites you might have visited before.

1:46:44 If you work for a charge point operator and want to learn more about how to make your sites more truck-friendly, we'd love to help out with site designs, because we've seen all kinds of layouts and some are better than others. The charge port position is a big topic there as well. Yeah, have fun and let's get heavy-duty trucking

1:47:16 electric. Thanks a lot and best of luck. Thank you. And this was the episode with Michael Clarke from the Electric Trucker. Impressive background, multicultural, and especially working at so many interesting companies and in such varied roles - starting from Tesla, where he had to convince hotel owners to install chargers, but also at Porsche in interesting aspects really related to route planning and how to integrate into the vehicles and different voltage, high-voltage levels in the Taycan, which was the most impressive EV of the first era of EV history, and then

1:47:52 of course NIO on charging in the ecosystem there for swapping, and what we learned on swapping experiences, prices, and especially the dynamic tariff for EV drivers at home, being one of the first smart charging apps in the market. I also liked how he compared the different pace of innovation, and especially the Chinese one, and what we can learn from there - just the pace of innovation and maybe sometimes you just launch a feature for free. And at least the features are there, and finally, of

1:48:29 course, the most important bit of the interview with the Electric Trucker. Even though the market is still in its infancy, it will probably grow as fast as he anticipated - in my view too - considering that long-haul trucks and generally logistics companies really care about total cost of ownership, and the prices of these trucks have fallen dramatically and the operational costs are very, very low compared to diesel. There are more and more restrictions as well, and indeed the feasibility, which is the main

1:49:02 counter-objection to using them, has been displayed by Toby - whose videos are super entertaining for the geeks among us that like these topics; I would recommend watching them. It is possible today, and not only in some select countries but even all over Europe, to drive these electric trucks. I found the details and the technicalities of charging power levels that we explored with him fascinating, but also how charge point operators and chargers differ from one another and the differences

1:49:37 in prices in particular, and where the whole industry is going, and of course all the features that the Electric Trucker app has and will have. Particularly interesting, and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you did, share it with those in your network that you think will like it, and let's participate in this transition towards e-trucks by sharing it and commenting on it. See you soon.