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Smart Charge · 14 May 2026 · 1 hr 12 min

Smart Charge Spezial mit Claudio Geyken, Pierre Rudolph und Stefan Poppe‑Lauterbach - E‑Flotten, Ladeinfrastruktur und Smart Charging aus der Praxis

Transcript

Cleaned up from a machine transcript. Translations are machine-generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy Podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, Founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets.

This episode is a bit different. It's not a classic interview episode, but rather a Smart Charge special session with Stefan Poppe and Pierre Rudolf as co-hosts. Stefan brings the charging infrastructure perspective – from grid connection through transformer issues to charging stations and on-site implementation. Pierre brings the fleet perspective. He has managed several fleets, driven digitisation and accompanied the electrification of the last mile at HelloFresh. And I bring the perspective of energy management and smart charging. We met on the joint HelloFresh project. There, vehicles, charging infrastructure and energy optimisation had to come together in

real operations. That's exactly what this episode is about. What really happens when you electrify depots? How do you avoid over-dimensioned infrastructure? When do you actually need a transformer? How can dynamic electricity tariffs reduce costs? And why does smart charging only work when fleet, hardware and software come together cleanly? This episode is also the start of a format we want to continue: regular conversations from our different perspectives, sometimes just the three of us, sometimes with additional guests from fleet, charging infrastructure, energy, grid and software. So today less classic interview, more honest practical session. What

have we learned? What would we do differently? And what should every fleet know before starting an electrification project? Let's go.

Yes, hello everyone. How are you all today? Hello, Claudio. Thanks. How are you? Yeah, great. Good to have you here. Today we want to start by introducing ourselves again, since it's also our first joint episode. Stefan, if you'd like to start – you're closest to me on my screen. Yes, then I'll happily take the ball. I'm Stefan. I've been working in charging infrastructure for three and a half years, primarily from

the hardware side, if you will – from grid expansion to the charging station itself. I'm an electrical engineer by training, learned it from the ground up and can therefore also handle electricity. That's my background on this topic. Do you want to continue? Yes, I'm Pierre. I'm someone who comes directly from fleet operations. In recent years I've been a fleet manager and fleet leader managing several fleets, driven digitisation and

also started electrifying fleets about ten years ago. I'm the one speaking to you from practical experience, so to speak. Great. And then I'll close the circle. I'm Claudio, here in Berlin, also grew up here. As the name suggests: half German, half Italian, a bit multicultural, also born in France. I've been passionate about the energy transition from an early age – since 2004 – and studied energy engineering and worked in various roles within the value chain, both in machinery and

plant construction for solar cells and in the installation of solar systems with battery storage, and then particularly supported entrepreneurs in building their businesses. Now I'm on the road with my own company, RiDERgy. As a note for listeners: how we met – perhaps, Pierre, since you were at the centre of the project, would you like to talk about that? We met in the course of a project that I most recently managed at HelloFresh. That was my former employer. It was about electrifying the last mile. It

was about electrifying vehicles that drive to customers and deliver HelloFresh's product, together with the charging infrastructure. In this context, things progressed quite classically: we ran tenders and needed someone for the hardware, for the charging infrastructure. And that's where we ultimately ended up with ChargeOne. Stefan was my contact there. That's how we met. We looked at what we

needed for the project. When was that, Stefan? Three years ago – almost. It's actually been almost two years now. Exactly, when the first beginnings were, when it all started. I was also specifically hired for the project back then. That's how we met, Stefan. I still remember that well. And as things go – it's not just about installing a wallbox, but about connecting the entire

energy system to the depot and ideally charging intelligently. That's where you came in, Claudio. That's when we met. We considered: What do we do with the electricity? How can we control the electricity most cleverly through load management? And that's where I discovered RiDERgy and got in direct contact with Claudio. We then started looking at how we could optimise the electricity as effectively as possible – exactly how we did that, we'll certainly tell you in the course of

the podcast, but just that much for now on how we met here. Yeah, cool. Do you want to add anything, Stefan, from your perspective perhaps? Then I can too. Gladly. So from my perspective: I had met Pierre. We were already involved in the project. That's when Pierre joined. I have to be quite honest, Pierre somehow put it on completely different footing. He drove it forward much better than it was before. Perhaps exactly due to that,

because he was also specifically hired for that. Previously, the whole topic just ran along in the house a bit, but that gave it a completely different drive. I have to be honest. Yes, we had – just to add briefly – someone on board who had never dealt with EV charging stations before. That was the point. And when I joined, coming from practical experience, it was

really first of all about looking at: What has actually been achieved so far? Stefan and I had to quite quickly first adjust things, obtain permits again or also adapt construction phases that had already started, and such things. So our start consisted first of conducting an inventory, but also making direct adjustments before we could even get into planning how to proceed. That was quite exciting at the beginning. I remember it well, Stefan. Yes, there are quite a lot of complexities, which we will probably

get into again shortly. And perhaps also from my perspective: For us as a company it is very important that we find the right use cases, also for smart charging of electric fleets. There are different types of fleets, and HelloFresh actually fitted perfectly for us too as a type of fleet, because it was about – for those who don't know HelloFresh – delivering the packages with the lovely, delicious meals to customers at home, and from

depots. That means it is still relatively plannable, the processes that we then also need to understand very well for our optimisation, compared to other types of fleets. And it also fitted well that with Pierre I found someone who as fleet manager really immediately burned for the topic and seized the opportunity. And then it worked. Although it wasn't so easy at the beginning to establish the necessary depot interfaces. That needed a bit of lead time, but

then we also managed, after a few months, to connect the charging infrastructure and then start the load management. Exactly – you've just summarised all that very quickly. Of course a lot of planning went ahead of that. We also started pilots to first see how it works. So, we had the first charge points in Munich – I remember – connected. And then it was about seeing how it really works in practice with the optimisation. And that was

also good – your suggestion, Claudio: Then let's test twelve charging positions overnight for testing. And so we could then see how that looks in the software and how that actually plays out in practice, with the colleagues on site, because they are just as important. Here it was always important for us: The vehicles must be charged, operational business must not be disturbed, as little as possible. Ideally to let these topics mesh together – that was the difficult thing,

because the packages had to get to the customer. And we had new vehicles – we can also come back to that shortly – new vehicles that we had not previously had in operation like that. We had to deal with service providers. So from a planning perspective it was already an issue to integrate this new setup into a fully functioning operational area. So we had little time to work in parallel, but rather we implemented it directly with vehicles that were new.

Service providers had to learn how to handle the electric vehicles. HelloFresh had new own vehicles that had to be integrated into the fleet. And bringing all that into operations was for me initially the biggest challenge. Which worked all the better, however, because our coordination that the three of us conducted ran flawlessly in my eyes. And that is an absolute prerequisite for such a project, that you already play through the things once in theory at scale, but then also definitely first play them through in a pilot

ideally, so as not to disrupt the operational area. Yes, totally. So I have of course summarised it. There were very, very many intermediate steps and very, very many people who were also involved. Greetings and thanks go out also to my Key-Misch, but also to Plath there in Munich from HelloFresh and Simon of course also from Charge One, but also Lichtblick. We had support here too – those were all colleagues who really

supported us superbly here. Exactly, as you already say, I didn't want to interrupt. So this project was definitely not trivial, given all the tests and the lead time. Just to mention one example: We had to sometimes send charging commands at a certain frequency to extensively test certain reliabilities and different vehicle types, different charging stations, in order to guarantee precisely this reliability that the vehicles also have enough range the next day, because the ranges

for these vans are sometimes limited, especially in winter, and since the routes are sometimes also very long, it is very important that you manage that well. Exactly so. And one point perhaps also: I mean, we didn't yet know whether the Charge One charge points would work with your system. We are now, if we were to work together on the next project, we would already know earlier what to pay attention to. But I would say,

at that time we didn't yet know which systems would work together. That was also a major issue. Stefan, maybe you can also say something about how things went in the early days, and then also combining it with the vehicle telematics? That was really exciting. Our colleagues on site were of course immediately important to involve there. We couldn't be everywhere at once. That meant we were at our locations and also handled a lot remotely.

Your colleagues, Claudio, had close exchanges with our load management specialists who were on site. And all of that was the challenge we had to master. Stefan, I still remember when we were right at the beginning, where it was first of all about installing grid capacity and charging connections before anything worked at all, and we already had some of the electric vehicles ready. So it's very, very exciting because the cars were already there.

Then there were five charging points for 20 cars, then there were somehow 100 amperes with which all 20 cars were supposed to and had to be charged. But it also had to be ensured that by six in the morning they were all fully charged again. You, Claudio, weren't even part of the project yet. And that showed in the course of the project that we needed someone like you in this project who would put the whole thing on the right footing – on the software side. You can do a lot, so building the boxes

is standard craftsman work, I'd say, establishing the grid connection is electrician work. These are all things that have been done many times already, even if when it comes to charging infrastructure it still somehow seems a bit new. But ultimately it's about electrifying an industrial operation, which actually has always been possible. What's exciting is then using the available power in such a way that it doesn't lead to the cold store failing or the lights flickering in the office, but rather being throttled back in the right place and also

pumped into the car at the right time. Those are the kinds of issues we learned about in this project. You mentioned, Pierre, how we started: it was electricity into the car, and that was basically all it was about. But we realized fairly quickly that it just doesn't work that easily. Dynamic load management systems also exist, they can do that – it's not trivial. But here it was about much more, about eventually achieving an effect,

which also means using electricity intelligently across the entire site. And that's where this three-way constellation really achieved a huge amount. We both, Claudio, naturally also benefited enormously from it. That's at least my view of it, that on HelloFresh's side there was someone with Pierre who also wanted to drive the whole topic forward. You need someone like that in such a project – not someone who says, this isn't working and I don't want it, but someone who actively participates in the project. That's very, very important. Absolutely.

That's worth gold, and actually still very rare in my experience as a fleet manager. And then again, because this is also an exciting topic that perhaps many fleet managers who might be listening don't quite have on their radar – again, to bring them up to speed: a major challenge is actually having enough capacity to charge the vehicles at all, because of the cables and the grid connection capacity with the grid operator. That's one thing. And

the second is also that over time you can save money with dynamic electricity prices for example or on grid fees if you control the charging processes more intelligently. Those are the two major topic areas. And perhaps we can again, because the grid operator topic perhaps particularly for fleet managers, or also for other market players who perhaps haven't had so much to do with grid operators – like you two in particular – share your experiences there, what it's like and what tips you might have.

Based on this experience as well for people who want to electrify their fleet or help fleets to electrify. I would say, how it went. So, Stefan, we had – at some point we were really into it. You have to really imagine it from a practical perspective. We have 6, 7 sites that we want to electrify. We have 15 to 20 vehicles per site there. Beforehand it was clarified: How much range do we need? How many charging points do we need for how many

vehicles? That's all of course in the form of a scaling process that took place beforehand. And then it's about: We now need 20 charging points here. We have 20 vehicles. We want to charge one vehicle per charging point. We have fixed dwell times. So we can roughly estimate how many vehicles can charge when and exactly how. And then it's about finding out: How much grid connection capacity do we actually have at the site? And then it was actually the case that I met up with Stefan on site, at

our depots, where HelloFresh is a tenant, to then look with the respective property managers – with the landlords, sorry, with the landlords – to see: What does it look like? How much electricity do you have? Can you even imagine doing this project with us? We want to electrify our fleet. We are going to electrify our fleet. But we would like to do it here as well

cooperation. And here it's just as important to bring the landlord on board right away. It was very important to me to say from the start: This isn't our own property. We're tenants, but we've been tenants for a long time. We'd also like to remain tenants for a long time. Let's look together as a team at what options we have. And that was first of all taking stock. We then looked at how much power is available. Do we need another transformer here? In the

worst case we need another one. How much grid connection capacity do we have available? And then we quite classically first walked through his facility with the landlord and looked – Stefan in tow with all his technical know-how, which was also super important, that of course he also knew about the technology and I didn't just have a theorist, a salesman, on hand, but someone who could do both. Ideal, so

we were in the grid connection rooms, all rooms, basement rooms – Stefan, do you remember everywhere we were? 6, 7 locations, everything looked different somewhere. We started with the assessment first. Stefan took photos. We measured, we asked. We really quite classically walked through with a pen and gathered all possible information. And then afterwards it went into the evaluation. We're talking about the landlords, primarily

about landlords, not about the grid operators, in the first step. No, no, we're still talking – I would scale it right from the beginning – still talking about the landlords. What's first necessary for that: Before we go to the grid operator, we first have to see what power is actually available for such a project. That's what should always be done first, so you know how much capacity you actually need for the project in the first place. And that's what we did with it. And

then it started, then it went into planning. Then we got the landlord's okay. It's no use if you want to push it through independently as a company. You definitely need the approval – something like that should always be obtained in writing. The lease runs for so many years, to work together on the project. In the vast majority of cases, you can say the landlords were very positive about the project and also definitely said: Wow,

great what you're doing here. It's about time someone does this. You're very good tenants. We'll even partially contribute to the costs. And so it went into planning. Stefan was then fully in his element, so to speak, as the chief coordinator. Stefan, tell us what happened next. Well, evaluation of the data. So first look: How much do I have? How much can I do? How much can actually work? He

already said it earlier: Dynamic load management systems can achieve a lot there, but also can't ensure everything. We also had failures at the beginning, grid failures. I can still remember one case, the main fuse blew at night at some point. We had to pull out all the stops – because neither of us actually sits directly in Munich, we had to find someone who could drive out there and replace that fuse,

so that operations, as mentioned at the beginning, aren't restricted too much. Because nothing is worse than creating frustration among electric mobility users and causing exactly the opposite effect, along the lines of: None of it works anyway. We had that before – people had already always said before that none of this works. We had to deliver first. Yes, exactly. You just have to make sure everyone feels comfortable.

Somehow. And then the topic also gains acceptance. And then everyone finds it all good too. Only as soon as such problems appear right at the beginning, that was difficult. So especially with grid operators: as soon as the grid operator topic came into play, we naturally took on that ball. I've meanwhile become such a 360-degree provider at WL company. That means you then somehow do everything. You take care of it being built and operated from start to finish, so start: grid operator

first bring on board. The grid connection applications that you first kick off in the form of a request – that can easily take 12 to 18 months before you somehow get close to a decision. And that's why that was also the reason why at the beginning we had to make do at each location with the capacity that was available on site. We did everything else in the second step and said: All right, we have this and that capacity, we'll get that

sorted out like this for now. And in parallel to that we're now operating the grid expansion, which also causes costs again. You also mustn't completely lose sight of that – these construction cost subsidy matters. I can remember the case in Munich: there it was immense, because the next transformer station was simply far away. You also can't say that always costs amount x, but it's really location-dependent. And those are the first little problems you immediately encounter when you just do the data collection

and the first analysis is due. That's where it starts, that's how it is.

And perhaps one more step back. We also calculated it all beforehand. Stefan, you remember. I had to do a budget plan, quite normally for the year 2024 or for the year 2025. Exactly. And we tried our best to also anticipate things ahead of time. And I can remember that you already said: it could be that we have a transformer station 5 meters away, but also 150 meters away. And we already tried our best to

to include these topics in the overall budget, which actually worked out quite well for us, I have to say. There was a budget that I presented relatively transparently, but then you had to make sure – obviously, this is just as important – to maintain the economic viability of such projects as well as possible and not keep sharpening things up here and there. So that was also an important point that you should always keep in mind during the construction phase – not just beforehand in planning, but also throughout.

Economic viability and costs, before it really kicks off into the construction phase. And what is your approach and recommendation usually, Stefan? A fleet manager probably doesn't know why a transformer substation is so relevant now. Maybe you can pick that up again, to what extent that is important now. And how did you dimension it? At each depot, did you basically take the maximum power of each charging point and then the sum of the charging stations and dimension the grid connection power from that, or how did you

handle that? What was your logic and the recommendation you would have for other fleet managers? Well, you always form a kind of average, I would say. If you now have 20 charging points at 11 kW, you cannot say that is the power you need. You immediately calculate with simultaneity factors. It depends on how much standing time these devices have. At HelloFresh, it was obviously a grateful fleet because you knew exactly what time the cars had

to fully recharge. That means you can approach the site with relatively low power that you ultimately really need. It naturally depends on whether you are only planning AC charging points or are immediately talking about 100 to 150 kW stations. That is of course something completely different. But that is basically how we approached it. We looked at it: there are 20 vehicles, with a certain simultaneity factor you arrive at relatively low power that you need. We calculated a lot of buffer at the beginning, I will be honest. So at the first sites

we dimensioned very, very high because we also wanted to avoid a failure. Over the course of the project, you then realise relatively quickly that you can achieve it in the same time with significantly less power. And especially at the moment, Claudio, when you started regulating and managing the whole thing, you made another step forward and found that it works with even less power. In most cases, you can still avoid your own transformer stations. There was a project before we started

– that was carried out in Hamburg. There was a transformer station there, DC stations were immediately implemented. It became relatively clear to us quite quickly that we don't actually urgently need them, not for the use case of having all the depot vehicles charged again in the morning. You can manage with significantly less power than you actually assume, precisely because of these simultaneity factors. You must not lose sight of that, you must not let yourself be deterred by it: 20 times 11 kW is not the power you need at the site. Most fleet managers – that is

also what we always say: You have to work with management systems that are already prescribed by the grid operator anyway, given the scale you then need. And then you get there relatively quickly – low-voltage connection or perhaps a medium-voltage connection – that also becomes relatively clear quite quickly. You need little grid expansion there, but you cannot manage without it either. That must also be said quite clearly. And since we are also here to share our experience and knowledge with others, and I am relatively certain that

the average fleet manager probably does not really know what the difference is between low voltage and medium voltage. Perhaps we can – and also transformer, how exactly the relationships are – you always hear about it, you need it. But perhaps it is also a good moment to explain that briefly. We have Stefan here with you as an electrical engineer,

someone who knows so well and can explain it. Well, I will explain the low-voltage medium-voltage part. Then you can explain the other part again. So: The electricity grid is, if you like, in comparison with a motorway – in the roads there is also the motorway for very fast speeds. That is the extra-high voltage or ultra-high voltage. Then there is the high voltage, then there is the medium voltage and then there is the low voltage. The low voltage is the one

that is at households or at commercial businesses with little power. Where is the crux then? When you then go into medium voltage, you usually need a transformer. That would be my simplified explanation for this part. Perhaps you can say again, for the fleet now directly – as at HelloFresh – from when do you need a transformer? And how do you approach that? Or what would be your recommendation? Yes, well, it naturally depends first of all on what

you need at the site. We managed with low voltage at most sites. The difference between medium voltage and low voltage is simply the power that I draw from the grid. Up to a certain limit, I can simply only draw from the low-voltage grid, and after that I need the next voltage level. That is why the grid in Germany is structured so that there are different voltage levels. And I can demand more power in a higher voltage level. For most projects, you can actually manage with a low-voltage connection.

You rarely need medium voltage, but when you do need medium voltage, you need a transformer station, which converts the medium voltage into low voltage. Low voltage means 400 V; medium voltage is a different voltage level, as the name suggests. That's why I have to transform it. Thinking back to childhood: model railway. Nothing ran on 230 V either; you had to have a 12 V transformer. And because of the controller – the more you turned it up, the more voltage flowed into the train, the faster

it went. So that's perhaps a way to picture it if you don't have much to do with electricity. Cool. Mine always derailed, especially at the

points – you weren't allowed to turn the controller up that far. Ah, the memories are flooding back. But tell me, in Hamburg we were operating in the medium voltage range. Exactly, because a transformer had to be installed. That makes such a project incredibly expensive too, because with a transformer you're very quickly into six figures. But you can't make a definitive statement even there, because every grid operator is different again. One says the transformer is part of

my grid. The next grid operator says the transformer must be provided on the customer side. And that's where the first discussions start: Who actually has to bear these costs? And to what extent can you actually do that? Exactly. And that's exactly the point you already touched on, Stefan: Which setup suits which operation? And Hamburg – a DC charger was definitely supposed to be installed there because they wanted to charge quickly, but

afterwards it turned out that you wouldn't necessarily have needed it there. And also understanding the costs: afterwards – let me think for a moment – the costs for DC plus expansion, we could have expanded, I think, three sites in the AC range with that. To put it in perspective: per charging point you're somewhere between 4,000 and 5,000 euros in the AC range with everything included, and in the DC charging range you're at least three times as expensive.

That's why it's important to find out what setup I actually need in the company. Everyone wants to charge quickly somewhere. But if I have time and I'm not working shifts, then an AC 11 or 22 kW connection is absolutely sufficient. It gets scaled up, and I can get by with that and of course also save enormous costs – first during installation and implementation and, Claudio, down the line of course also with optimisation. Yes, I can briefly remember a little anecdote about how your

budget planning went. You came to me and said: "Why is this so cheap?" We then had to have such discussions internally with you as well. Yes. Why it was now so cheap, compared to the Hamburg site that was built first. Right, right. And I even had from my supervisor: "That can't be. You've miscalculated." Yes. And so we calculated it that high. And we had – you have to say this too –

we have a framework agreement with percentages. That's also all part of the economic process, concluding a framework agreement accordingly. But we were well below what we had previously budgeted in costs for one site. And that was exciting to see. And where you still said to me: "Well, I can't – should I artificially inflate the costs for you?" Where I then said: "No, we're not doing that."

We'll keep a buffer. But we'll do it like this. And I also had to more or less assert myself internally in my company and say: "Trust us here. We're on the right path here. We have contracts here that are written down." And such a contract – you stick to it. They're signed. And we're just going to get started now. With a certain buffer we might still

make it. Of course, things always happen that you can't foresee 100 percent. But by and large, looking back, we were fully within budget. Yes. And what were the issues there with the grid operators? Perhaps you could tell a few more anecdotes in the same direction – where you learned something, what was funny, or where you'd say: "Not again, please" – or how you would do it differently

next time. Grid operators – briefly: That's also such a topic. You have to imagine: there are powers of attorney. That means there's the executing company that implements the project for the commissioning company – HelloFresh in this case. And then powers of attorney are granted. And then the company can get started and basically start obtaining quotes on behalf of the client, coordinate with the construction companies, and then the construction phase begins. And that's where it already started. That means,

despite the power of attorney, it was the case that right at the beginning it already failed because there was no feedback at all. That means our commissioned service provider initially received neither a quote nor any feedback at all. Not at all sites. We had about six, seven sites – seven different grid operators. One worked like this, the other like that. It was very, very different. But I can say that with most of them it already failed at getting any feedback at all

receive. That means here too it ended up being the case that ultimately the end customer – me in this instance, as the one who commissioned the work – also had to get involved, had to call the grid operator myself and ask directly why there was no response to the contracted company and when we could get started. We had internal schedules. And I'm not the most patient person. And if you've already waited a month or so, first for

a quote, and still get no reply – and then hang in endless queues like dealing with the authorities and then hang in queues again – at some point my patience runs out too. And then eventually you get through and have a friendly lady on the phone. And then you start to explain. And often the advantage there was: the HelloFresh brand is very positively perceived, so you first say: "Oh,

HelloFresh! What products do you have? What – what can you do there?" "Yes, I'm a HelloFresh customer too." And then through that route you first got in and said: "Yes, we have this and that product. Great that you're a customer." And that's how it started, that you had a good conversation on a personal level. And then you said: "But we – we're here in the federal state of

XY. We're creating jobs here. We have a big project ahead. We want to electrify. It simply cannot be that we now wait here for a month and a half, two months, just to receive a quote for the required charging capacity that we calculated beforehand. What's the reason?" "Yes, we're also in the middle of restructuring. We have a huge to-do list in front of us. We can't manage everything. Please forgive us for that." I say: "Well, but

a response would at least be nice." And so it went on like that a few times, that the end customer had to step in before anything moved forward at all. And then, Stefan – how did things continue with you? Yes, as the contracted company – sometimes even the power of attorney doesn't help you. You communicate with most of them, but you can't rally everyone into battle. That's just how it is. There are good grid operators and less good ones. That's simply the case. But there are also

countless ones in Germany. And that's why – with all of them it's not the same. But sometimes it's almost funny, because we have a power of attorney. We're commissioned by the company. And then they always refer to portals where communication takes place. But in these portals there's then nothing visible for us. Everything somehow in processing, and we can't really track it. But you also have to cut the grid operators a bit of slack, I think. They have so, so much on

their plate, everything that's supposed to happen all at once. That's not entirely easy to manage either. The grid, the infrastructure just isn't very good. And you have to somehow get everything under one roof. But still, it must be possible to give feedback more quickly. Two comments on that: I've supervised projects where it took, I think, thirteen months to establish that the customer had submitted the wrong application. But I've also had cases where on a Thursday afternoon we digitally prepared all the documents

and uploaded them into the system. And on Friday lunchtime we had approval for the grid expansion. So there really is everything possible in the market. My experience on this: just prepare the data as well digitally as possible. A hand sketch immediately gets put at the bottom of the pile. So you really have to think a bit about what actually helps, and build in everything you somehow know and can. And very important: get the grid operators on board from the start, directly when you begin a project, call the grid operators first,

because that's also the longest process time. Indeed. Yes, and above all – that's exactly what I also wanted to say. When you did have the grid operator on the line, then it was always a constructive conversation. That's also quite clear. They are, as you rightly said, Stefan. It's not personally down to the individual grid operators now. I'm well aware that their order books are full. The grid is old. They have to work with what they currently have. You can

already see that in billing processes, sometimes how they look. And of course, you still wish in such an operational process simply to get feedback. That's what you just want to have – not getting any feedback from time to time, that's just difficult. Because it's also the case, Stefan, we're already building in parallel in some cases. So it's not as if we're doing nothing at all. The infrastructure, what

you can already do without – what you can do without approval – is already being incorporated into the workflow. There are schedules. If you now – you don't put the hammer down for two months, but what you can do, you do in parallel. And then sometimes you already have infrastructure installed or built somewhere. And then it just gathers dust, because you simply don't receive the smallest approvals. That was, I have to say, the biggest challenge during our project time, obtaining the appropriate

responses. But it's getting better. I'm also in contact with colleagues, they're all working on it. And I know it's not easy for the grid operators to deal with. The whole industry is growing very, very quickly. New topics keep coming up. Next comes the topic of bidirectional charging, which is also being expanded further. I do believe they're doing their best. But when you're in operations and have a schedule that's working well

if you want to make progress, you really should plan a bit more time. Claudio, what's your experience with grid operators? Do you have any data on that or anything? I'd be interested to hear about that too.

Yes, well, I do have some points of experience. I'd also be happy to highlight one soon. It's not so easy, because we also want to engage with grid operators through the podcast. They're just so busy with so many issues – until all the regulations from the Federal Network Agency are implemented. We haven't even talked about the smart meter topic yet – all these issues keep them very occupied. And we've had a lot of touchpoints with them, also because

that's obviously very relevant for our business model too. We would have liked a different approach than the one chosen now. I know there are also many grid operators who would agree with us. And otherwise – yes, there really are some good grid operators. But as he already said, they're a bit overloaded. They're simply too small. There are 850 of them, I believe, in Germany. And so there are just very many who are

now a bit overwhelmed by digitalisation and all these changes that the energy transition is causing. There are also increasing calls to launch some kind of consolidation wave to manage it all. But I think it's still not clear how that will develop. Just as an example: we, together with Switzerland, I think, are the ones in the world with the most grid operators per area. In France there is one distribution grid operator. That just shows the – in France

Yes, and then ice. And then it's a country that is considerably larger in area than Germany, and they manage it with just one. And once they're fully digitalised and the process is running, it's also handled very professionally. It does make everything easier, you have to say. But well, now we're more federal than France, and let's see how that develops. But in the interest of time, I wanted to come back to other topics. Specifically

new funding programmes have also just been announced by the federal government. I think, Stephan, you've looked into them a bit. Maybe you'd like to sweeten things up. Yes, let's say for those who might have been put off but have at least already gathered some insights: Why is now still a good time for e-mobility? We can perhaps talk about the funding programmes. Yes, right now there's the WEG funding programme. So, multi-party buildings are now to be brought more into focus,

that's how I'd describe it roughly. But there too, there are very clear limits to what the whole system can do. I have to equip at least 20 per cent of the parking spaces. To be eligible for an application, I also have to install at least six charging points. So there too – you can't just say: Yes, I want to get funding now. But honestly, we're moving away a bit from the pure wallbox subsidy, which didn't just move you forward, but really. Here

it really starts from grid expansion right through to the end – you get a share of the rollout, you're now participating. From my point of view, business models will also develop around this, because that too can be something. My experience with the real estate sector is: they're very, very cautious, because they don't use it themselves. It also has to somehow fit the property somehow. There too, there's no one-size-fits-all solution you can put over all properties.

You simply have to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. But the processes in such homeowner associations are also very, very long. You also need to know that this funding programme is also capped again in November. That means you have to be finished by then too. What you can also push through – thankfully that's regulated – is to pass a resolution with the homeowner association. Usually they only have one meeting a year, and then they also have to be unanimous somehow. That makes the whole thing

incredibly complicated. The first-come, first-served principle plays a role again. That means: first come, first serve. Whoever has the application ready first often gets the award. So it often helps to be a bit ahead of time and prepare and think about: what could a structure look like in my properties? But from my point of view, it's an important step, the WEG funding, to consciously promote these underground car parks, because there's enormous potential there in my view, once an agreement is reached.

And often the owners are also funds and communities. You first have to get them all on the same page, so that everyone really pursues the same goal. But from my point of view, it's an important step in that direction. Next topic: truck charging is the next topic being funded. There too, you have to be ahead of time to already be able to pull out a concept from the drawer under the first-come, first-served principle, and ideally even already have a quote, because with all funding programmes that's usually

So: you do have to obtain quotes, but you may only award the contract after receiving the funding approval. And then you first have to find companies that will actually hold their quoted prices valid for up to three-quarters of a year to a year. That's the next issue on top of it. I simply mustn't award the contract. So, these are all things where time plays an absolutely crucial role. But an important step in my view. What I find good is that the system as a whole is now being subsidised more. So not, as you say. The private sector is now

being very strongly subsidised again at the moment. So here they're pushing e-mobility with new themes, with new funding opportunities, with discount offers for electric vehicles – very strongly, now again in fleets. Of course the system as a whole is being subsidised. I think the approach here is right. There is a funding pot here. Sure, if it's used up now – but I'm firmly convinced that there will be new funding pots again. That means if we were to start again now with our project, we would of course first check the funding eligibility in the respective

federal states to see: how can we incorporate that? These are topics we didn't have in our time. The funding pots were only minimally available then. But subsidising the system as a whole and not just per charging point or per vehicle is in my eyes the right approach. Yes. Perhaps also worth mentioning at this point: these federal funding pots. And then there are also funding pots at state level. You can always find out about those.

Are there perhaps opportunities in your own federal state where you plan to electrify? And indeed, as you already say, for private car purchases there is also good funding that is running now. However, I would also mention on the topic of funding that it is slowly becoming very economical from a total cost of ownership perspective, even without subsidies, to invest in electromobility, depending on the use case, especially now in view of the Iran war, where the combustion engine costs, the

operating costs are rising so sharply with diesel and petrol. That oil prices will now fall in the long term and that diesel and petrol prices will be very low – I would be sceptical about that. Whereas with electromobility there are more and more possibilities to reduce the TCOs in operation. Perhaps we can now focus a bit more on what the possibilities are there. Can you go into the dynamic electricity tariffs again,

Pierre, how you handled that to take advantage of the benefits of dynamic electricity tariffs, for example – and what exactly that is, explained from your fleet manager's perspective? Perhaps first, before I get to the topic of E: it's the case that you're now also at a point with the ranges. You check the costs, you go through the TCO. So the – let's say – pure petrol car, if we're talking about passenger cars now, I haven't even included that in my car policy for the last five

years anymore, because the pure petrol car is of course being increasingly replaced by the electric vehicle. You have the diesel drive for those who drive fifty to sixty thousand kilometres a year – maybe diesel is still relevant somewhere there. But we see it in the current situation: the point will come where we should become increasingly more resilient against dependence on fossil fuels, and all the other possibilities we have there, that we use them

for ourselves – with wind and electricity and sun and everything available to us. Now in that project it was the case that through depot charging we had fixed times and had scaled fixed ranges. So unlike in a fleet I had managed in previous years, where pool vehicles were in use, but also vehicles due to the zero point two five percent rule. There were all those subsidies. And there you also knew based on a driving profile

how much the employee drives, and could then scale up accordingly: which vehicle is the right one for them? Which drive is the right vehicle? And then it very quickly becomes clear that we no longer need the petrol car in the fleet. And so it continues with the ranges. So in my opinion we will also increasingly be able to replace diesel in the near future, and accordingly that will also be noticeable in the TCO, as you already said,

Claudio. Now in that last project it was about fixed standing times – we need an electricity tariff. Here it was the case that we looked at: are we even connected? Per federal state we are in emergency supply. That's often the case when you build in the respective federal states. Where are we even connected? What electricity do we actually need? And here it was the case that in close collaboration, Claudio, also with the company RiDERgy, we discussed: we choose, we decide on

the dynamic electricity tariff. Because this dynamic electricity tariff enables us to use the optimisation with the company RiDERgy in the best possible way. That means we chose a tariff that – cost-wise, without all the additional fees – is somewhere around zero point two six euros per kilowatt-hour, which we were then able to reduce accordingly through optimisation: quarter-hourly at the electricity exchange with the electricity optimisation from RiDERgy, to ideally get to around zero point one five five euros or so

come up with, without all the grid fees that flow into it as well. That's why we decided on a dynamic electricity tariff for each location, in each federal state – now in the last project – on the basis that we could carry out the optimisation as best as possible in order to become even more efficient. The location, the future, the energy source, the energy you draw from it, how you channel the energy, how you manage the load – that's a big part of how you ultimately accompany the TCO.

Exactly. In addition to that: electricity prices change every 15 minutes. A few days ago at the weekend we almost had a record negative price – it was the second-lowest price, I believe, in the history of electricity in Germany, at minus 48 euros. So crazy – you have to look at your phone twice to really take that in. Unbelievable. The mechanisms behind these negative prices – we won't go into them now for the sake of time. But for those who are interested, gladly afterwards – people can write to me.

And you can take advantage of that. And in the long term there will definitely be very, very many price fluctuations. And when there's a lot of sun and wind, it will be very cheap. And then you should charge as much as possible, because otherwise they'll also be curtailed. And if you support the grids when they're a bit overloaded, then you also get reduced grid fees. So those are all mechanisms where some market participants say we could drive for free,

which you certainly can't do with diesel and petrol. And that's the big advantage of electric mobility. That's why you shouldn't necessarily just have a subsidy mentality, but rather say it simply makes economic sense. And it will pay off if you adopt the technology early, in my view. And then there's the topic of bidirectionality, which is still in its infancy, where you can even earn money by

using the vehicle's battery and then also exploiting those price fluctuations – charging when it's cheap and releasing the energy when it's expensive. So those are all topics that will come in the coming years. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Yes, well, when you hear all that, the trend is rather towards a second electric car, so that you can just fill up the second car in those moments when it comes to making money. Yes,

that's how it is. A lot will still happen in the future. But now in the project it was important for us to position ourselves with the latest software. That's also always important to me, that we position and set ourselves up in such a way that you can build on the existing system. I can only recommend that to everyone. We're not building for today, but we should build in such a way that our system can still either be expanded with modules in five to ten years, so that you don't have to start from scratch every time.

That was important. And that's why you need the latest platforms first. When you then decide to electrify the fleet, there's the topic of sustainability, which is of course also a big point. We haven't really discussed that yet either. If you're moving in urban areas, stop-and-go and everything, then of course electric mobility – I don't think we need to talk about this – is the healthiest and also the most practical thing you can have,

especially in big cities. But it's of course also about not starting from scratch again in five to ten years, but rather placing the charging points with the appropriate ISO certifications there, so that you can expand the system at any time and constantly modernise or update yourself. An anecdote that personally affected me a lot: I've been in streets particularly in Spain, but not only there, in various countries as well, where it really stank beyond

belief. Then I read statistics also on lung cancer from these particles that come out of the exhaust pipes of combustion engines. And you couldn't breathe properly. It was loud. Recently I was also in China, where there are lots of electric vehicles – in Shanghai for example everything is so quiet, no exhaust fumes. And the more we also have that in Europe and in Germany, it's definitely a

more beautiful world – so regardless now of the TCOs and the climate crisis, which are of course very relevant, but also in terms of quality of life. I think those are also added values that shouldn't be underestimated. You can also put a euro value on that. Yes, cool example. But that's exactly it, Claudio. It's not just about that. That's exactly the interplay of everything. Sure, one person would now say: Yes, what does that cost? And in the end it's not so sustainable in terms of production after all.

And you're only beautifying one side. But it's exactly like this: when you let all the points work together, then you find the right TCO, the economic viability, the sustainability, the optimisation. That's exactly what we ultimately want in the fleets too, that everyone is satisfied in the end. So at the beginning I even drove out to customers myself with every electric car, because I wanted to see for myself: How does this work? I wanted to understand the system myself once. I personally went around Munich

driven to the customer. We were in a branded vehicle. We arrived there in our new electric car. The HelloFresh customer was already standing at the fence. It was really like: Wow, new vehicles – amazing and great. And sure, electric vehicles have been driving around for a very long time. That wasn't new anymore, not even two or three years ago. But it's also about how you approach the topic, how you feel about it. And that's just as

important a topic that you should be open-minded about if you want to move the issue forward. Because just as it's basically mandated by the government: We're becoming increasingly electrified, we can't avoid it anymore. We only talk about electric cars now. We were just at the Flotte Stefan in Düsseldorf – there are exclusively electric vehicles there. So you're at our trade fair in Düsseldorf. The Flotte – we go there every year. There wasn't

a single combustion engine vehicle. And it's just like this: That's going to be the technology of the coming years. And that's why it's always very important to me to involve the drivers within the company, all colleagues. I've always told my employees in the past: Take an electric car home for the weekend. Drive it and then form your opinion. And very rarely did I get a car back where they said: Here's the key. Keep the car.

Yeah, terrible. So, the feedback I received was always very positive. Always appropriate to the driving profile, of course. But that's so important in my view, to actually try things out yourself first. Use vehicles, see how much you really drive. And always these arguments: What do I do when I go on vacation? Twice a year. Where I then say: But 80, 90 percent of the time you're driving a completely different profile. And so, have a look at

how it really is. And that's also important, to have a positive influence on colleagues within the company – not to sugarcoat everything, that's not what I mean, not everything is perfect. We're talking about harsh temperature differences. So, in winter we really had 30–40 percent less range at times, which didn't do our project any good either. You have to say that clearly. The vehicles aren't quite there yet in some cases. That means you naturally get much better

results with diesel propulsion. Your planning is completely different. And those are issues that aren't optimal yet, of course. But they're getting better all the time, and the process isn't static but keeps growing. In terms of the outlook, as we approach the finish line, there are several thoughts that came up that I wanted to share. What personally convinces me about this topic: I became interested in electric mobility back around 2011. And there were only a few

vehicles then. Nissan Leaf – for those who know about these things – was the market leader with 200,000 units per year. Then came the Tesla Model S and so on, without going into too much detail. There really were just a handful of electric cars on the market in the 2010s. And then in 2017, 2018 people mentioned that by 2025 there would be close to 500 models on the market. That actually happened. There are massive numbers of electric vehicles. Especially now, because at the auto show in Beijing unimaginable numbers of – that means, if you

compare this: within ten years, and also within my lifetime, just since the 90s, battery costs have gone down by 99 percent. That means the trend continues: It's going to go down further. Range problems that existed ten years ago don't exist anymore in the latest vehicles. BYD has announced over 1,000 kW charging capacity within five minutes. Charging stations are being installed all over the world. In Germany too, I believe there will be 30 locations within the next

months. So, there's just tremendous momentum in this whole story. And on the topic of sustainability: The batteries – that's always a topic. Yes, you have to mine the material, there's definitely something to that. However, batteries can be recycled – over 90 percent of the materials can be recycled. They're also still extremely valuable. That means the vision is also that you'll go and recycle them all. And then you won't have to mine as much, and the environmental impacts will also be less

significant. That means: You can't recycle oil – that's physically impossible. But you can recycle batteries, and people will recycle them. That means even on the sustainability level there's really nothing against it anymore. Just to add that. I'm definitely very optimistic about electric mobility, as you can hear. However, you do have to say that there are challenges that we've also tackled very practically here and that shouldn't be hidden.

However, there are also solution providers and people who know their stuff and can take you by the hand. But all forms of propulsion started somewhere. And I think if you consider how recently electric mobility became mass-market, so to speak, and how fast the growth and development is here – I find that quite exciting.

So, Stefan. Yes, well, next time we'll need to specialize a bit more. I mean, it's crazy. You only now realize how many topics there actually are. And you can't do a three-hour podcast. But perhaps we can specialize it a bit more in another format. We're also going to Munich soon, to Power to Drive, where we'll also

practice reports, where speakers report from practice. And I'm glad I agreed that the three of us would discuss the topic we've already covered here. For all those who want to see us live: I think we can inform you again – follow us, and then we'll certainly announce when and how exactly. Exactly, right, right. Yes, and I'm looking forward to that too.

already as well. Yes, me too. And perhaps in terms of outlook – I think Pierre and I have already said our almost closing words. Maybe you, Stefan, have something else you want to share, in the sense of: yes, where we stand in e-mobility, or outlook, or things that are currently occupying you. Oh, yes, quite fundamentally what occupies me is of course the further expansion and operation of charging infrastructure. But I do believe that: if you look medium to long term, the

expansion will increasingly decline – that's my opinion. And then it becomes about operating the existing charge points. There are always situations where you need to add charge points somewhere, but the major expansion will at some point – medium to long term, from my personal perspective – slowly decline. And then it's more about: it will increasingly focus on software. Operation, billing topics, dynamic electricity tariffs, Plug and Charge, Vehicle-to-Grid, Vehicle-to-Vehicle – these are all the exciting topics that will

accompany us in the coming years. That's my view. Pure hardware expansion will increasingly decline. Then at some point it moves towards car data, so that you no longer need a box to get the charging session data. That's something, for example, that we at WL are already working on now – that at some point it will be such that the data no longer comes from the box, but directly from the car, so that I no longer need a wallbox. Nevertheless, I still need the electricity –

no question. The power has to come from somewhere. You just can't transmit it wirelessly yet. In vocational school we once tried to calculate how big such an antenna would have to be to transmit electricity over ten metres. It's incredible. It simply doesn't work – physically impossible. There are simply limits. But as I said, a lot will focus on software. That's my opinion for the next medium to long-term view.

Great, yes. I can only agree – with both of you of course – and I'm looking forward to the next episodes and that you've shared your knowledge so openly. I hope the listeners also enjoyed listening to us, and for those who can't get enough: please follow us. And also – I think we're all very active and open on LinkedIn – and also at Power to Drive, as I said, in Munich we'll be visible live.

So please get in touch afterwards. Yes, we're open to suggestions, or if you're even interested in sharing your knowledge yourself, please contact us and then we'll see. Then have a nice day everyone. Thanks likewise. Bye.

That was our first Smart Charge by RiDERgy special round with Stefan and Pierre. The key findings: fleet electrification is not a wallbox project, but a system project comprising operations, grid connection, charging infrastructure and energy optimisation. A few numbers stick: grid connection issues can take twelve to eighteen months. In one project it even took thirteen months just to discover that the wrong application had been submitted. Therefore: involve grid operators and landlords as early as possible. Second point: a transformer shouldn't automatically be the first solution. Many depot projects work with low voltage if load management is properly planned. A transformer

can quickly reach six-figure costs. Third point: test first, then scale. In the HelloFresh project they deliberately practised with one to two charging positions overnight to test software, charging commands, vehicles and workflows in operation without disrupting depot processes. And the biggest lever lies in electricity. With dynamic tariffs the price changes every fifteen minutes. Pierre gave an example where before optimisation the price was significantly higher and can be in the target range of zero point five five euros. That makes smart charging a real TCO lever. The practical formula:

check standard connection, involve landlords and grid operators early, test small, use load management and only then scale. We want to continue this format with Stefan and Pierre and bring in additional guests in future. If you have topics or guest requests, please write to us. Until next time.

Episode notes

Smart Charging funktioniert nur dann, wenn Flotte, Hardware und Software sauber zusammenspielen. In dieser besonderen Smart Charge Folge besprechen Claudio Geyken, Pierre Rudolph und Stefan Poppe-Lauterbach, was bei der Elektrifizierung von Flotten in der Praxis wirklich passiert, aus den Perspektiven von Energieoptimierung, Fuhrparkmanagement und Ladeinfrastruktur. Im Mittelpunkt steht das gemeinsame HelloFresh-Projekt: von der Elektrifizierung der Last Mile über Netzanschluss, Vermieter, Ladepunkte und dynamische Stromtarife bis hin zur Frage, wie intelligente Ladesteuerung im laufenden Betrieb wirklich funktioniert. Alle waren am spannenden Projekt beteiligt und erzählen aus Ihrer Erfahrung. Themen der Folge: - Warum E-Flotten mehr brauchen als nur Ladepunkte - Was Fuhrparkleiter bei Netzanschluss, Vermietern und Planung beachten sollten - Warum AC-Laden oft reicht und DC-Laden nicht immer nötig ist - Wie dynamische Stromtarife und Smart Charging Kosten senken können - Welche Rolle Software, Fahrzeugdaten und Plug & Charge künftig spielen - Warum Pilotprojekte, klare Kommunikation und operative Erfahrung entscheidend sind Eine praxisnahe Folge über Chancen, Hürden und Learnings der Flottenelektrifizierung.